The Desolation

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Zigur

One thing I'm not seeing a lot of people mention here (and elsewhere) is Bilbo. Is he as badly sidelined as all that? The lack of focus on him at points in the first film was troubling enough.

Bilbo was great. Martin Freeman does a wonderful job portraying him just as the first film. Sure, there could've been more of him, but at the same time, I didn't feel like he was missing from the story.

Originally Posted by Boro

AUJ was done well with Thorin, Balin and Kili. There were smaller interesting moments where we got glimpses into Dori, Dwalin, and Bofur and I was expecting DoS to just keep going with some of the other dwarves (there is the moment where Gloin won't give his money and when Legolas sees a picture of Gloin's wife and Gimli), but it just doesn't happen.

Thorin's development takes several steps back. Dori, Dwalin and Bofur stagnates. In nearly 6 hours of film Bombur and Nori have had no dialogue and all Bifur can do is inaudibly grunt because PJ wanted to have a funny pun with "Bifurcate." I'd say only Balin, Kili and one bit with Fili ("My place is with my brother") are done well amongst the dwarves.

I would've like to see more characterization of the dwarves too, though I do realize with 13 of them, being able to feature them all is no easy task. As spawn mentioned, Tolkien didn't give them much personality in the books, so I'm grateful that they at least made an effort to create individual personalities for the films. I found that by watching the special features on the dvds for the first film, I got a much better sense of who each character was (there's a whole hour featurette dedicated to the dwarf characters).

Originally Posted by Kuru

However, that is not what we are seeing Jackson do here in his hexilogy. He has repeatedly tinkered with characters, changing the nature of who the character is, altered storylines and events in ways that can charitably be called strange, and added storylines and set-pieces straight out of his own mind to the point that it overwhelms the original story.

I've seen enough good adaptations to know that Jackson did not have to do it this way and be successful.

That's your opinion, which is perfectly fine. I'm not happy with all the changes either and think the film would've been better without some of them. But obviously PJ thought otherwise. What I'm saying is I think every change in the film was made because he believed it would draw a bigger audience, not necessarily because it would improve the original story. And of course we're free to agree or disagree with those decisions.

Writing for the screen is difficult enough; adapting a beloved story to the screen is an even bigger challenge. I woke up this morning with a random thought in my head: If you were to write the script, how would you do it? What would be cut, what would stay, what would have to change to make the story flow visually, and can you do all that while keeping it under three hours? There are many roles in the making of the films I would've loved to take on, but writing is certainly not one of them. While PJ's films are a far cry from perfect, they really could've been a lot worse.

Instead focusing on the negative, I appreciate what they do include from the books and Tolkien's world, which is still quite a bit. And I'm not just talking about the writing, but also the little details...in the weapons, the makeup and costumes, the sets. If you ever watch a behind-the-scenes featurette, you'll see there's so much effort made into bringing Tolkien's universe to life. Many people like to just look at the bigger picture, but I love the details. To me, that's what sets PJ's films apart. That, and the fact that everyone involved in these films has so much passion; it's not just another job to them.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

That's your opinion, which is perfectly fine. I'm not happy with all the changes either and think the film would've been better without some of them. But obviously PJ thought otherwise. What I'm saying is I think every change in the film was made because he believed it would draw a bigger audience, not necessarily because it would improve the original story.

But this gets back to my fundamental problem with what the film series has turned into. If Tolkien's stories themselves are not enough to stand up on their own without all this re-writing, why not have the courage to do your own script and put your own work out there as your own? I think that would be infinitely better than savaging the work of another.

While PJ's films are a far cry from perfect, they really could've been a lot worse.

That is true, but they could have been a lot better as well.

Basically I have the sense that Tolkien fans are being cheated with a sub-standard product and there is no real reason why it had to be this way.

Part of me hopes that with this trend of accelerating re-boots to film franchises somebody will come along and do a better job with Tolkien's world...although that hope is partially hypocritical on my part as I'm not too fond of the accelerating trend of re-boots...but still...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

But this gets back to my fundamental problem with what the film series has turned into. If Tolkien's stories themselves are not enough to stand up on their own without all this re-writing, why not have the courage to do your own script and put your own work out there as your own? I think that would be infinitely better than savaging the work of another.

Indeed– but these days studios greatly prefer to back adaptations of books (best-selling ones, naturally). They’re considered to be more marketable and generally safer than original screenplays.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Indeed– but these days studios greatly prefer to back adaptations of books (best-selling ones, naturally). They’re considered to be more marketable and generally safer than original screenplays.

Indubitably, however, if they are going to not have enough confidence in their own work or defer to the work of another artist as their setting, then they ought to treat the work of the other artist with respect and not trash it.

I think it is a biting condemnation of DoS that even people who are reviewing the film favorably are admitting that Tolkien almost certainly would have hated it.

[Diamond18]

According to Lommy I am missed around these parts. At her suggestion I'm going to reproduce something I wrote on Tumblr a few days ago, which was just my very off-hand comments and impressions about the film. As it was a really hastily written entry for my blog I apologize for lack of depth. Anyway....

I have to say I think that the movie was really, really awful.

It’s not that it digressed from the book. I loved the first Hobbit movie, and that certainly digressed from the book. It’s that as a film, it was awful. The action scenes were far too silly to fit the otherwise super serious tone of the film and overall, as a movie, it felt really bloated. Like, it felt like the rough first draft of something where you pour everything into it, before you go back and edit the great stinking pile into something decent.

That’s not to say I didn’t enjoy parts. I think the spiders were magnificently creepy and horrific (though I missed Bilbo actually, you know, taunting them) and generally the whole getting lost in Mirkwood bit was well done.

I genuinely loved Tauriel as a character and I appreciate the attempt to make The Hobbit less of a sausage fest by having her in it. But I disliked that the romantic subplot between her and The Hot Dwarf was so… badly done. I’ll hold off on having an opinion whether a Dwarf/Elf romance works outside of Gimli/Legolas fanfiction because that’s not really the case here. The Hot Dwarf made an inappropriate joke about his trousers and then they had a nice conversation about mothers and stars, and suddenly it’s “Do you think she could have loved me?” That line really put me over the top. I mean, let’s not have any subtlety at all. Just in case you were unsure that there was a romance subplot, DO YOU THINK SHE COULD HAVE LOVED ME?

Also Legolas. My God. Jealous brooding love triangle glowering does not look good on him. What the hell was up with his eyes? They were brown in LOTR and now they’re a sickly shade of cataract covered blue. My boyfriend says this was on purpose to illustrate that the elves of Mirkwood are plagued by evil, and I guess that makes more sense than anything else. But it was still weird and unnecessary.

(Sidenote, I didn't expect a real answer to this on Tumblr but if anyone on the Downs knows, what actually was up with Legolas' eyes? Has Jackson made any comments about them?)

I really liked Bard and his family. Beorn was awful. Smaug was fun to watch, but the entire sequence still suffered from the bloated, unnecessary, “we must stretch this into three movies” syndrome that Hobbit #2 suffers from far more than Hobbit #1 did.

I went to see An Unexpected Journey twice in theatres but needless to say I have no desire to watch The Desolation of Smaug again.

[Alcidas]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

Also Legolas. My God. Jealous brooding love triangle glowering does not look good on him. What the hell was up with his eyes? They were brown in LOTR and now they’re a sickly shade of cataract covered blue. My boyfriend says this was on purpose to illustrate that the elves of Mirkwood are plagued by evil, and I guess that makes more sense than anything else. But it was still weird and unnecessary.

(Sidenote, I didn't expect a real answer to this on Tumblr but if anyone on the Downs knows, what actually was up with Legolas' eyes? Has Jackson made any comments about them?)

I noticed this as well when that trailer first came out - but when I asked about it online I was just swatted off by people saying that it was blue in the LoTR movies as well...

[Morthoron]

It is a little known fact that Peter Jackson was considering making the Laketown sequence a musical. Here is the libretto:

ACT II – The Esgarothian Threnody
(In which Bard, unemployed and unappreciated, bemoans his fate in back of the hall)

Personae:
Bard -- tenor
Bilbo Baggins -- piccolo tenor
Bombur –- basso profundo
Dumplin -- mezzo soprano/transgender dwarf in love with Legolas
Master of Laketown -- baritone
Dwarven chorus
Laketown choir

Bard: Is this a hero's life
In Middle-earth fantasy?
I play second-fiddle
To a Hobbit who's three foot three,
And dwarves I despise,
They don't realize --
I've ceased…to be…

I'm just a poor heir of long-dead Girion --

Laketown choir: He was the Lord of Dale, then he failed,
When Smaug the dragon whipped his tail.

Bard: Everywhere were flames blown,
Burning up a kingdom for me…for me.

Drama -- I crave a role,
An epic tale, a meaty part --
Shoot a dragon in the heart!
Drama -- stardom would be fun,
But now it seems I've missed the casting call!
Drama – Ooooooo,
The leading roles have passed me by,
If the script is not rewritten this time tomorrow,
I'll move on, I'll move on,
Because scripting really matters.

Too late, my crown is gone!
It would've looked good upon my head,
Now the dream is all but dead.
Goodbye to the pomp and panoply,
And all the nifty words that describe majesty.
Drama – Ooooooo,
I just want my rightful throne,
I sometimes wish I lacked a pedigree –

Master of Laketown: I see a little bitty shadow of a man!

Laketown choir: He's a noob, he's a boob,
he's not worth a bruised mango!
He's so uninviting, he is not exciting me.

Dumplin: Where's the mayo?

Bombur: Do you need mayo?

Dumplin: Where's the mayo?

Bombur: Do you need mayo?

Dumplin: Where's the mayo for my toast?

Bombur: I need more rolls!

Bard: I'm just an actor, nobody casts me.

Laketown choir: He's just an actor stuck in rehearsals,
Spare him a role in the next production, please.

Bard: Epics come, epics go, can I have a role?

Laketown choir: Scriptwriter – please, give the man a role!

Dumplin: Buttered rolls!

Laketown choir: Scriptwriter – please, give the man a role!

Dumplin: Buttered rolls!

Laketown choir: Scriptwriter – please, give the man a role!

Dumplin: Buttered rolls!

The Dwarves and Laketown choir: Please give him a role – buttered rolls,
Please give him a role – buttered rolls,
Please give him a role – buttered rolls --
No, no, no, no, no, no, no!

Bombur: Cotto salami!

The Dwarves and Laketown choir: He'll have salami with his rolls!
Morgoth Bauglir has a goblin put aside for me
For me, for me!

Bilbo: I can't believe I left the Shire for this!
I'll put on my ring and maybe I won't be missed!
O Gandalf! Why'd you do this to me Gandalf?
I've got to get out, get me the Hell out of here!

Bard: Scripting really matters
For actors such as me
Scripting really matters
Scripting really matters to me…

Dwarven choir: May we have more buttered rolls?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

(Sidenote, I didn't expect a real answer to this on Tumblr but if anyone on the Downs knows, what actually was up with Legolas' eyes? Has Jackson made any comments about them?)

I seem to remember reading, back in the days of the LOTR films, a statement that elven eyes change colour depending on their mood - hence Legolas's eyes went from blue (or grey, can't remember) to brown in the films. The real reason was that they'd blundered with Orlando Bloom's contact lenses, or even forgot to put them on.

[Alcidas]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I seem to remember reading, back in the days of the LOTR films, a statement that elven eyes change colour depending on their mood - hence Legolas's eyes went from blue (or grey, can't remember) to brown in the films. The real reason was that they'd blundered with Orlando Bloom's contact lenses, or even forgot to put them on.

Bloom has brown eyes naturally. (Or at least I'm assuming he does because they were brown in Kingdom of Heaven, and I think they are unlikely to have asked him to wear coloured contact lenses for that film) - he had brown eyes in Troy as well - so if there was a blunder then its just that they went ahead and gave him blue eyes for DoS, forgetting that he had brown eyes in LoTR

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

According to Lommy I am missed around these parts. At her suggestion I'm going to reproduce something I wrote on Tumblr a few days ago, which was just my very off-hand comments and impressions about the film. As it was a really hastily written entry for my blog I apologize for lack of depth. Anyway....

I have to say I think that the movie was really, really awful.

It’s not that it digressed from the book. I loved the first Hobbit movie, and that certainly digressed from the book. It’s that as a film, it was awful. The action scenes were far too silly to fit the otherwise super serious tone of the film and overall, as a movie, it felt really bloated. Like, it felt like the rough first draft of something where you pour everything into it, before you go back and edit the great stinking pile into something decent.

That’s not to say I didn’t enjoy parts. I think the spiders were magnificently creepy and horrific (though I missed Bilbo actually, you know, taunting them) and generally the whole getting lost in Mirkwood bit was well done.

I genuinely loved Tauriel as a character and I appreciate the attempt to make The Hobbit less of a sausage fest by having her in it. But I disliked that the romantic subplot between her and The Hot Dwarf was so… badly done. I’ll hold off on having an opinion whether a Dwarf/Elf romance works outside of Gimli/Legolas fanfiction because that’s not really the case here. The Hot Dwarf made an inappropriate joke about his trousers and then they had a nice conversation about mothers and stars, and suddenly it’s “Do you think she could have loved me?” That line really put me over the top. I mean, let’s not have any subtlety at all. Just in case you were unsure that there was a romance subplot, DO YOU THINK SHE COULD HAVE LOVED ME?

Also Legolas. My God. Jealous brooding love triangle glowering does not look good on him. What the hell was up with his eyes? They were brown in LOTR and now they’re a sickly shade of cataract covered blue. My boyfriend says this was on purpose to illustrate that the elves of Mirkwood are plagued by evil, and I guess that makes more sense than anything else. But it was still weird and unnecessary.

(Sidenote, I didn't expect a real answer to this on Tumblr but if anyone on the Downs knows, what actually was up with Legolas' eyes? Has Jackson made any comments about them?)

I really liked Bard and his family. Beorn was awful. Smaug was fun to watch, but the entire sequence still suffered from the bloated, unnecessary, “we must stretch this into three movies” syndrome that Hobbit #2 suffers from far more than Hobbit #1 did.

I went to see An Unexpected Journey twice in theatres but needless to say I have no desire to watch The Desolation of Smaug again.

Hi Diamond!

I just posted the other day in the Memorial thread that it had been awhile since you had been around.