Sauron's Super Army?

[Zigûr]

Just to briefly revive this thread if I may, I noticed the following when doing a bit of reading for another thread the other day, from Akallabêth as Sauron laughs in the temple at the departure of Ar-Pharazôn:

"and a third time, even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edain for ever"

This would put it fairly plainly in my view that Sauron quite determinedly did not want to rule the Númenoréans - he wanted to exterminate them. Not necessarily the most practical course of action, but Sauron was a very evil being, and surely sheer hatred must at times have trumped reason, especially regarding those enemies who had obstructed his plans and humiliated him.

[NogrodtheGreat]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

This would put it fairly plainly in my view that Sauron quite determinedly did not want to rule the Númenoréans - he wanted to exterminate them. Not necessarily the most practical course of action, but Sauron was a very evil being, and surely sheer hatred must at times have trumped reason, especially regarding those enemies who had obstructed his plans and humiliated him.

This is interesting and perhaps correct, but it is belied by Sauron's utter patience and meticulousness in his take down of the Numenoreans. In some sense he was supremely rational in the way he went about it. I think in the end you are correct - Sauron wanted to destroy them, but not only because of his hatred. He wanted Numenor out of the geopolitical picture, for one.

With this achieved, he wouldn't have had much trouble destroying Gil-galad and then taking all of Middle-earth. Only the formation of Gondor and Arnor really stopped him in the end - without the Last Alliance and its manpower he probably would have conquered the world.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by NogrodtheGreat

This is interesting and perhaps correct, but it is belied by Sauron's utter patience and meticulousness in his take down of the Numenoreans. In some sense he was supremely rational in the way he went about it. I think in the end you are correct - Sauron wanted to destroy them, but not only because of his hatred. He wanted Numenor out of the geopolitical picture, for one.

Yes, I think that's true - I think I might have explored similar ideas in an earlier post. I just think that the issue of his malice contributes better to our understanding of why he destroyed them rather than trying to incorporate them into his regime. I think we probably have three complimentary reasons:

1) To limit the resistance to him in Middle-earth and eliminate a rival for power.
2) Because they would have been too difficult to wholly absorb into an existing empire (especially, in my view, the way he would have wanted: with himself as their King and God, not just the High Priest of an illusory divinity who manipulated their de jure leader).
3) Because he hated them and wanted revenge.

[Belegorn]

Sauron most certainly wanted them gone. His armies could not stand up to them and he felt they could topple his own base. It's quite amazing when I think about it because the Last Alliance was supposed to be the likeness of the army assembled to topple Melkor at the end of the First Age, and yet, with no Alliance, the Númenóreans themselves could overwhelm Sauron's forces. Also, remember Ar-Pharazôn would not let Sauron go around talking about he was the King of the World. So the idea of him being a King over the Númenóreans even though he had so manipulated them due to their fear of death, was not going to happen. The only thing they were crazy about at Númenór was their Doom. So Sauron made use of this fear and had them put an end to themselves, for the most part.

[Zigûr]

Reviving this thread for a specific purpose:

The Silmarillion thread going at the moment had me looking around for quotes about Ar-Pharazôn's invasion of Aman, and I came upon this good quote from The Peoples of Middle-earth, in the Tale of Years of the Second Age, about Sauron in Númenor:

So great was his power over the hearts of the most of that people that maybe had he wished he could have taken the sceptre; but all that he wished was to bring Númenor to ruin.

This suggests to me that Sauron really was in a "destruction first" mindset by the end of the Second Age; he cared more about destroying Númenor than ruling it.

Wish I'd been able to find this quote five years ago! Can't believe it's been that long

[popo]

Tolkien novice here, but reading the Silmarillion yesterday and I came upon the line the OP was based upon:
"[Sauron] gathered again under his government all the evil things of the days of Morgoth that remained on earth or beneath it"

Do the lore experts here consider this the best evidence that Sauron held sway over Balrogs - espeically Durin's Bane? To me the quote seems an expicit yes!
However I've seen other threads here debating who's interest Durin's Bane would have acted under in FOTR, his own or Sauron's.

[Pervinca Took]

Welcome aboard, Popo.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by popo

Tolkien novice here, but reading the Silmarillion yesterday and I came upon the line the OP was based upon:
"[Sauron] gathered again under his government all the evil things of the days of Morgoth that remained on earth or beneath it"

Do the lore experts here consider this the best evidence that Sauron held sway over Balrogs - espeically Durin's Bane? To me the quote seems an expicit yes!
However I've seen other threads here debating who's interest Durin's Bane would have acted under in FOTR, his own or Sauron's.

That seems pretty conclusive, doesn't it? I think on that evidence, I'd have to agree that both the dragons and the balrog(s, if there was more than one, which is probably unlikely) were under Sauron's sway - in the Second Age, at least. Given his multiple defeats at the close of the Second (I count three in the space of two generations), it seems likely that influence would have lessened or faded entirely in the Third Age.

In fact, we know it did, because Gandalf's fear in The Quest of Erebor (found in Unfinished Tales) was specifically that Smaug might join Sauron - not that he was already on his team.

An interesting question arises about Shelob and her kin - were they 'evil things of the days of Morgoth'? But Shelob definitely comes across never having been subordinate to Sauron, though she fears him. I think the explanation is that Ungoliant and her spawn stem from an older time - they're not an evil brought by Morgoth, unlike the orcs and even the balrogs.

Coming back to the balrog and the dragons... how strong must the Elves and Numenoreans have been?! We're explicitly told in the same passage as the quote you found that Sauron feared to pass the Ered Luin, and that his armies couldn't withstand the might of Numenor. But we also know that a single dragon was able to bring three great nations of the Third Age - Erebor, Dale, and the Woodland Realm - to their knees, destroying two and preventing the other from making a move against him.

I think the answer may lie in Lake-Town. I know that the River Running is a prime trade route, but who in their right mind sets up shop right under the eye of a dragon? Well... actually, until Thorin showed up, it worked pretty well for them, because Smaug didn't come out. He seems to have been quite content to sit in his mountain, cuddling his gold. Similarly, Durin's Bane never sets foot outside Moria, even though it could probably slaughter its way through most of Lorien if it chose.

The big players on Team Morgoth don't like to leave their holes much. Sauron is probably the most 'outgoing', and even he spends most of his time sitting in a tower somewhere. Come to think of it, when he starts moving around, bad things happen to him - he got shot by Beren in Dorthonion, beaten by Minastir in Lindon, sunk by Iluvatar in Numenor, and stabbed by Isildur on Dagorlad! Why risk that when you can just throw an army of orcs at the problem, or - if you're cunning enough - make yourself some undead sorcerers?

Accepting then that Durin's Bane and the dragons were under Sauron's 'government', that doesn't mean he could just send them wherever he wanted. Remember that Morgoth himself had trouble controlling Glaurung, who snuck off when he was half-grown, and later pretty much just decided not to go home. I'm sure the balrog said it would do something about those dwarves mucking about up above it... but, y'know, maybe later? Why not let them mine out all the mithril first, save us the bother...?

hS