Elves visiting Numenor.

[Belegorn]

I think that it should be kept in mind that this was not a ban the Eldar had given to the Númenóreans. It was a ban of the Valar since Manwë Súlimo did not want the Númenóreans to "overpass the limits set to their bliss" [Akallabêth, p. 323] I would say that although they desired an Elvish destiny it was the blessings bestowed upon them that stoked their jealousies as "the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them; and ever as their power and glory grew greater their unquiet increased." [Akallabêth, p. 325] I think their unrest was tied to the gifts they received as High Men and the resulting experiences.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I think their unrest was tied to the gifts they received as High Men and the resulting experiences.

I agree. Consider Professor Tolkien's remarks in Letter 131 when discussing Númenor: "Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment!"
It was the gifts of the Valar to Men which catalysed their downfall, but only through the volition of Men, not the action of the Valar.
At the same time, however, I think that while the responsibility lies with Men, there is a clear parallel with the destruction ultimately caused by the Valar bringing the Eldar to Aman. The persistence of the Valar in the First and Second Ages in interfering in the natural course of events is usually both a blessing and a curse.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

there is a clear parallel with the destruction ultimately caused by the Valar bringing the Eldar to Aman.

What do you mean by this?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

What do you mean by this?

Precisely what I say. When the Valar debated the matter of bringing the Eldar to Aman, Ulmo counselled that "the Quendi should be left free to walk as they would in Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill to order all the lands and heal their hurts." This view did not prevail, however, and the Eldar were invited to Aman. As Professor Tolkien consequently observes, "From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell." ("Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor")

If they had not done so, doubtless the Eldar would not have achieved some of the same heights of power and glory that they did under the tutelage of the Valar. At the same time, however, they would not have been sundered as a people, nor would the Noldor have rebelled and caused so much havoc. Is there not a parallel to Númenor? If the Edain had been left to their own devices they may not have reached the same heights, nor fallen to the same lows, as they consequently did. Again, "Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment!"

[Inziladun]

This is a bit off-topic, but it occurs to me that apparently no Dwarves ever saw Númenor. Did they even know about it? Since their area of renown to Men was as warriors and weaponsmiths, would that be a reason for the Númenóreans never inviting them in the early years of the realm, when there was peace? What of the later times, in which Númenor turned to war? Did they do business with Dwarves?

I realize that Dwarves seem to have had a aversion to the Sea, so that might after all be the simplest explanation.

[Zigûr]

In "Of Dwarves and Men" Professor Tolkien observes that the Longbeards, who we must remember were the only surviving Western House of the Khazâd by the Second Age, had most traffic with that large portion of the House of Hador which never ventured as far West as Beleriand. Hence, it would seem to me that the Longbeards at least were simply too far away from Beleriand to have contact with those Western Edain, High Men, who went to Númenor. Those who did encounter them, refugees from Belegost and Nogrod, fled East to Khazad-dûm. I may be mistaken, but it would appear that the re-establishment of mines in the remains of the Ered Luin did not occur until later, further limiting conflict with Western travellers at this time.

Regardless, when the Númenóreans did visit Middle-earth, they usually came south. Professor Tolkien makes a point of remarking in the same essay that "The first ships of the Númenóreans appeared off the coasts of Middle-earth about Second Age 600, but no rumour of this portent reached the distant North." Seemingly the Dwarves were simply too far away, in addition to being on the other side of Noldor territory which the Númenóreans avoided. Even during the youth of Aldarion in which the Men of Númenor were friendly with the Noldor, they "went but seldom further than the land of Gil-galad." (Aldarion and Erendis) Even Aldarion himself when in the north only sojourned "far in Lindon and the west of Eriador." So there would appear to be little or no concourse between the Dúnedain and the Dwarves at that point in their history. When the Númenóreans became imperialistic and warlike their power was, apart from the Faithful, still largely concentrated in Harad from Umbar southwards, very distant from any Dwarven lands, Western or Eastern, further limiting the possibility of contact. Only the Faithful ended up close to them geographically, by which time the doors of Moria had long been shut. Despite a long-standing relationship between Dwarves and Men in general, perhaps the first major encounter between these two particular groups was when both nations participated in the Last Alliance, well after Númenor itself had been destroyed.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Is there not a parallel to Númenor? If the Edain had been left to their own devices they may not have reached the same heights, nor fallen to the same lows, as they consequently did. Again, "Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment!"

I see what you meant. When I read it, it did not make sense to me. There is also the Melkor element in both that sent the whole thing down in flames. In Aman his lies spread among the Noldor further fanning the flames. In Númenor Sauron, like Melkor did in his first meeting with Men, had them in the end putting Melkor as Lord. So the finishing touches in Aman and in Númenor were enacted by rebellious Ainur.

The one seems to have started with reincarnation and a 2nd marriage, making strife between siblings, the other with the decision of one sibling to a fate in which his descendants would all be mortal and for the most part come to regret their Fate.