Can Hobbits and Men learn Elf/Dwarf art and craft? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mithalwen · 09-09-2013, 02:46 PM

Technology means the strudy of craft, skill or art. I don't see that it is inappropriate.

I don't think we know wnough about the manufacture of elf cloaks to say they are beyond reach of mortals., in fact the evidence is rather the cotrary. The elf says they could have taught him much but not in the few seconds they had before boarding the boats. There are a limited number of ways that even an elf can twist a fibre. Similarly we know that the cloaks were woven by Galadriel and her maidens. Weaving is more complex than rope making and mayb some of the virtue is in he way it is woven but I don't see indication that other races with the same equipment couldn't reproduce it albeit less proficiently. These seem to be things that require materials, method and skill not magic even if they seem magical.

There are things that are the work of specific individuals wjich probably could not be rellicated...even Feanor could not remake the silmarils. The Mirror of Galadriel sEems quite specific to her, quite possibly a manifestation of her innate power enhanced by wielding the ring of water. It seems unlikely that just anyone elf or no could pour water into the basin and create the mirror. That is beyond skill.

I don't see how saying elves are sub creators is a conclusive argument. It seems meaningless ..how are elves sub creators in a way that excludes other races?

Belegorn · 09-11-2013, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

how are elves sub creators in a way that excludes other races?

Elves are "the representatives of sub-creation par excellence" [Letter #130] Lúthien was part Elda and part Maia and Tolkien states that Eru, "gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation." [Letter #153] Elvish "'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence)" [Letter #130]

Mithalwen · 09-11-2013, 05:42 AM

But that surely refers to specific exceptional individuals is already identified: Luthien, Feanor, Celebrimbor, Galadriel, maybe others. It is a huge step to extrapolate that because these exceptional elves were able to make one off remarkable things such as the Silmarilli, Palantiri, the Elessars, -which could not be repeated in some cases even by themselves,that mortals would be unable to learn the humbler crafts of elves. Which was the actual question.

We know that dwarves in general can rival the Noldor in smithying and stonework, the Numenoreans crafted blades that could worst the Witch King but you are saying that a hobbit would be unable to make silvan rope because he couldn't make a Silmaril. Even though the silvan elf on the ground seems to think it possible. He doesn't say " our ropemakers serve a thousand year apprenticeship to learn the secrets so you just wouldn't live long enough" , it is only because he us literally leaving that minute that is the problem.

Sculpture may well have reached its peak in renaissance Florence but while only Michelangelo couldcraft David, any competent modern mason can dress a stone well enough for practical purposes.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 09-11-2013, 03:11 PM

Agreed in many ways, but at least the first and the last thing Belegorn quoted refers to Elves in general. It reflects also well what Tolkien has written in "On Fairy-Stories" - even though one could of course put into question whether when he speaks about "Elves" in there, he means the same Elves as those in Middle-Earth, I would say that he does, because after all, Elves were one of his major obsessions and so it is, I believe, justified to imagine his portrayal of Elves, in whichever of his works, to reflect in one way or another his general understanding of the Elves.

Elves were supposed to represent just that: the race which is, somehow, connected essentially to the fabric of fantasy, or the fantasy world, and is capable of making it "real", whereas human mind makes such changes only "in one's mind". Of course, the Elves (in Arda) pay for it by being bound to the world, whereas human spirits are leaving Arda after death (for more details, see Athrabeth in HoME). It is a very complicated subject, but essentially I believe it is perfectly right to say that Tolkien was not afraid to show that Elves could essentially manipulate (such an ugly word - read as "enhance with beauty" etc.) the reality of Middle-Earth, since it is, after all, a fantasy world (while at the same time being presented as "real" - but at least in relation to the Elves it is, I believe, all right to regard it as "fantasy"). So in other words,

I however now see and I agree that we can't probably say what exactly is still craft available to Men and what is solely Elven domain - such as, whether a Man could theoretically be able to craft an Elven-rope but not an Elven-cloak (or vice versa) and so on. Nonetheless, even though we can't probably tell where exactly the line is, I believe it is right to claim that there was a kind of special Art which was specific to Elves as Elves (and not to Fëanor because he was Fëanor, or to Fëanor because he happened to be in Valinor, or to Lúthien because she was special, or to Galadriel because she had the Ring etc).

Speaking of Rings, remember what Gandalf told to Frodo - that the Rings of Power were "too dangerous for mortals", implying that it is nothing the Men (or Hobbits) should meddle with, of course first, because it is dangerous, but I also believe that it implies that such kind of stuff is exactly not for them. (And maybe it is dangerous also because it is not for them. Again, you can see the same themes in "On Fairy-Stories", if you look at them from that perspective.) The same idea again being present, I believe, in the Smith of Wootton Major, where he is not supposed to keep the star which allows him to travel to Faërie - simply: anything, which directly relates to Fantasy, can be at most "borrowed" by Men, but to make permanent, real connection to Fantasy, to alter it "in flesh" is for Elves only. So even in Middle-Earth, Men do not, or should not have the power to alter things "magically", in another way than to make a sword out of iron or a house out of wood. But to make a glowing tree or a talking sword should basically be beyond human reach. Or that's how I would see it, hope it is understandable what I wanted to convey, even though I was sort of jumping between two perspectives here. But basically it all points to Tolkien's understanding of the Elves and Elven "craft": they have keys to something to which the Men will never have full access.

Mithalwen · 09-11-2013, 04:23 PM

The first isn't really pertinent to the question since neither ropemaking nor ordinary writing are sub-creation in the sense that Tolkien uses it, the last is relevant but it is relatve not absolute. He says they can do things better and more easily than mortals. It is a continuum not a Venn diagram excluding mortals. But because elves do everything easier and some things at a higher level it doesn't mean everything every elf does is at a level that cannot be matched by mortals.

Now I am happy to concede that some things are likely to be only achievable by elves but I think they are likely to be at a higher level than rope .. if not as high as the items previously cited. A fairly likely example would be Gondolin blades. The Lorien elf said they put the thought of all that the love in to the things that they make and the flip side of that might be that their hatred of orcs et alia is also chanelled.

Where elves really can be regarded as subcreators is in say the ability of elf bards to conjure visions of their subjects.

09-11-2013, 05:42 AM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	But that surely refers to specific exceptional individuals is already identified: Luthien, Feanor, Celebrimbor, Galadriel, maybe others. It is a huge step to extrapolate that because these exceptional elves were able to make one off remarkable things such as the Silmarilli, Palantiri, the Elessars, -which could not be repeated in some cases even by themselves,that mortals would be unable to learn the humbler crafts of elves. Which was the actual question. We know that dwarves in general can rival the Noldor in smithying and stonework, the Numenoreans crafted blades that could worst the Witch King but you are saying that a hobbit would be unable to make silvan rope because he couldn't make a Silmaril. Even though the silvan elf on the ground seems to think it possible. He doesn't say " our ropemakers serve a thousand year apprenticeship to learn the secrets so you just wouldn't live long enough" , it is only because he us literally leaving that minute that is the problem. Sculpture may well have reached its peak in renaissance Florence but while only Michelangelo couldcraft David, any competent modern mason can dress a stone well enough for practical purposes. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace Last edited by Mithalwen; 09-11-2013 at 10:56 AM. Reason: delete repeated phrase. expansion

09-11-2013, 03:11 PM	#4
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Agreed in many ways, but at least the first and the last thing Belegorn quoted refers to Elves in general. It reflects also well what Tolkien has written in "On Fairy-Stories" - even though one could of course put into question whether when he speaks about "Elves" in there, he means the same Elves as those in Middle-Earth, I would say that he does, because after all, Elves were one of his major obsessions and so it is, I believe, justified to imagine his portrayal of Elves, in whichever of his works, to reflect in one way or another his general understanding of the Elves. Elves were supposed to represent just that: the race which is, somehow, connected essentially to the fabric of fantasy, or the fantasy world, and is capable of making it "real", whereas human mind makes such changes only "in one's mind". Of course, the Elves (in Arda) pay for it by being bound to the world, whereas human spirits are leaving Arda after death (for more details, see Athrabeth in HoME). It is a very complicated subject, but essentially I believe it is perfectly right to say that Tolkien was not afraid to show that Elves could essentially manipulate (such an ugly word - read as "enhance with beauty" etc.) the reality of Middle-Earth, since it is, after all, a fantasy world (while at the same time being presented as "real" - but at least in relation to the Elves it is, I believe, all right to regard it as "fantasy"). So in other words, I however now see and I agree that we can't probably say what exactly is still craft available to Men and what is solely Elven domain - such as, whether a Man could theoretically be able to craft an Elven-rope but not an Elven-cloak (or vice versa) and so on. Nonetheless, even though we can't probably tell where exactly the line is, I believe it is right to claim that there was a kind of special Art which was specific to Elves as Elves (and not to Fëanor because he was Fëanor, or to Fëanor because he happened to be in Valinor, or to Lúthien because she was special, or to Galadriel because she had the Ring etc). Speaking of Rings, remember what Gandalf told to Frodo - that the Rings of Power were "too dangerous for mortals", implying that it is nothing the Men (or Hobbits) should meddle with, of course first, because it is dangerous, but I also believe that it implies that such kind of stuff is exactly not for them. (And maybe it is dangerous also because it is not for them. Again, you can see the same themes in "On Fairy-Stories", if you look at them from that perspective.) The same idea again being present, I believe, in the Smith of Wootton Major, where he is not supposed to keep the star which allows him to travel to Faërie - simply: anything, which directly relates to Fantasy, can be at most "borrowed" by Men, but to make permanent, real connection to Fantasy, to alter it "in flesh" is for Elves only. So even in Middle-Earth, Men do not, or should not have the power to alter things "magically", in another way than to make a sword out of iron or a house out of wood. But to make a glowing tree or a talking sword should basically be beyond human reach. Or that's how I would see it, hope it is understandable what I wanted to convey, even though I was sort of jumping between two perspectives here. But basically it all points to Tolkien's understanding of the Elves and Elven "craft": they have keys to something to which the Men will never have full access. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

09-11-2013, 04:23 PM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	The first isn't really pertinent to the question since neither ropemaking nor ordinary writing are sub-creation in the sense that Tolkien uses it, the last is relevant but it is relatve not absolute. He says they can do things better and more easily than mortals. It is a continuum not a Venn diagram excluding mortals. But because elves do everything easier and some things at a higher level it doesn't mean everything every elf does is at a level that cannot be matched by mortals. Now I am happy to concede that some things are likely to be only achievable by elves but I think they are likely to be at a higher level than rope .. if not as high as the items previously cited. A fairly likely example would be Gondolin blades. The Lorien elf said they put the thought of all that the love in to the things that they make and the flip side of that might be that their hatred of orcs et alia is also chanelled. Where elves really can be regarded as subcreators is in say the ability of elf bards to conjure visions of their subjects. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-09-2013, 02:46 PM	#1
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Technology means the strudy of craft, skill or art. I don't see that it is inappropriate. I don't think we know wnough about the manufacture of elf cloaks to say they are beyond reach of mortals., in fact the evidence is rather the cotrary. The elf says they could have taught him much but not in the few seconds they had before boarding the boats. There are a limited number of ways that even an elf can twist a fibre. Similarly we know that the cloaks were woven by Galadriel and her maidens. Weaving is more complex than rope making and mayb some of the virtue is in he way it is woven but I don't see indication that other races with the same equipment couldn't reproduce it albeit less proficiently. These seem to be things that require materials, method and skill not magic even if they seem magical. There are things that are the work of specific individuals wjich probably could not be rellicated...even Feanor could not remake the silmarils. The Mirror of Galadriel sEems quite specific to her, quite possibly a manifestation of her innate power enhanced by wielding the ring of water. It seems unlikely that just anyone elf or no could pour water into the basin and create the mirror. That is beyond skill. I don't see how saying elves are sub creators is a conclusive argument. It seems meaningless ..how are elves sub creators in a way that excludes other races? __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace