How close is the published The Silmarillion to JRRT's Silmarillion?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

But the question is, would JRRT have approved of the published version as put out by his son?

I don't believe that's ultimately an answerable question. I like to Tolkien would have been satisfied, or as much as an author with such an ever questing, questioning mind could be. No doubt he could have thought of improvements, but when is that not the case?

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

If so, could that perhaps settle the "is it canon?" debate?

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

I mean, Tolkien himself never seems to have decided what were "canon" elements of the Silmarillion, and it seems Christopher went off his father's notes and efforts to the best of his ability--Sort of the way Bilbo would've transcribed likely conflicting Elven histories of ancient, perhaps slightly misremembered days, to the best of his ability.

Your words about the long efforts of CT lead at least me to think of the published Silmarillion as canon. I know that since its release Christopher himself has found new notes and writings from time to time that suggest the book should have had some changes, but it doesn't seem to have concerned him enough to "update" The Silmarillion in order to incorporate any of the new (or old) ideas.

[jallanite]

Christopher Tolkien’s rmarks on The Silmarillion as published nowhere indicate that it is more than an attempt by his son to more-or-less put out what his father wrote.

Christopher Tolkien’s various remarks about what he sees as errors by himself in The Silmarillion is enough to indicate he himself does not consider the published Silmarillion as canon. That he has not corrected those points shows no more that he sees no point in correcting a work that was never intended to be canon to make it canon. Indeed, Christopher Tolkien never uses the term canon.

When discussions on particular points of Tolkien’s legendarium come up, those discussing the points are quite ready to bring in material from Christopher Tolkien’s HoME series and these are accepted as pertinent to the discussion. No-one insists that the words of Christopher Tolkien in the published Silmarillion have any priority over his father’s words as given by him elsewhere.

That is not normally so with variant versions of material which was published in J. R. R. Tolkien’s lifetime.

Christopher Tolkien wrote in his Foreword: “I set myself therefore to work out a single text, selecting and arranging in such a way as seemed to me to produce the most coherent and internally self-consistant narrative.” In later writing Christopher Tolkien clearly indicates that he regrets certain of the decisions he made then.

That Christopher Tolkien has not produced a new version is said to show that Christopher Tolkien is totally satisfied with his edition. Yet Christopher Tolkien again and again says that he is not satisfied with it. It therefore appears to me that Christopher Tolkien is indicating that he cannot find a way to produce a version that would totally satisfy him, that a perfect Silmarillion is impossible to produce.

Inziladun’s solution to simply ignore Christopher Tolkien’s words in those cases is very unsatisfactory.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Inziladun’s solution to simply ignore Christopher Tolkien’s words in those cases is very unsatisfactory.

What's the solution, then? Everyone can't be an HOME scholar, devoting much time to study of earlier drafts and variants, not to mention various noted and letters produced by J.R.R.T. in his later years. There's an endless capacity for debate if one takes your tack, for the fact is, if CT's version is unacceptable to you, there will never be an edition that satisfies. If that's all right with you, so be it.

For the purpose of discussion such as we have on this forum, there must be a standard to base opinions on, and The Silmarillion, for all its faults, fills the bill. I choose to see the published work as canon, because I do not see how it will be bettered.

[Mornorngûr]

I personally consider 'The Silmarillion' to be canon, whilst at the same time incorporating into my point of view all the later writings that fit the general history without drastically altering the storyline.

For example we could accept Orodreph as being Felagund's nephew rather than brother, because it in no way really interrupts the basic flow of events or story. However we can not accept that Feanor burnt his youngest son along with the ships, and even less that he burnt both of them (as suggested in HoME-11) because this would drastically alter the history, and does not fit in with the story.

Another example could be that we can accept that Turgon saved Idril from drowning during the crossing; but we can not accept that Celeborn came from Valinor with Galadriel (Well I refuse to accept it anyway )

[Galin]

I also do not think the Silmarillion was ever intended to be canon, nor is held to be so by Christopher Tolkien.

To me The Silmarillion and The Children of Hurin very generally fulfill Tolkien's intentions as far as 'the book experience' goes, in comparison to the scholarly experience of HME. In this general sense it doesn't matter much who Gil-galad's father is for example [I note however that Gil-galad's parentage is left obscure in The Children of Hurin tables], although the lack of any framework, even if a brief recounting of who wrote what for instance [if known], would, I think, add a distinct something that is 'lacking' in the current version.

Christopher Tolkien himself noted that he should have attempted some sort of framework, but to me this is quite different from second guessing who Gil-galad's father should have been [he noted he should have left this obscure], or if Orodreth should have been Galadriel's brother or not.

Anyway I think there was at least one revision to the first edition of The Silmarillion with respect to the numbering of the Numenorean Kings and Queens [emphasis on I think]; and if I recall correctly The Lord of the Rings itself has been edited in this respect, so now the detail matches in certain editions.


Anyway, yes HME has infiltrated the Silmarillion threads and threads in general.

What's the solution, then? Everyone can't be an HOME scholar, devoting much time to study of earlier drafts and variants, not to mention various noted and letters produced by J.R.R.T. in his later years.

Possibly to make certain threads '1977 Silmarillion only', but that's really only a solution to a specific aspect of discussing the Elder Days. Some have not read HME nor want to, but I agree that the 1977 Silmarillion can be used as a 'shared internal canon'.

I mean Christopher Tolkien's version is the only book version to work with and we are not likely to get another -- which, if we did, would probably contain more descisions not everyone would agree with in any case.

Based on what can be found in HME and elsewhere, everyone's personal Silmarillions will possibly be different, and even very different: for example [since someone already brought it up], I can imagine the death of one of Feanor's sons at Losgar being 'internally true', but then again I don't have to produce a one volume Silmarillion for 'everyone's bookshelves' in which that choice has to become a reality on paper, and involves more considerations than simply imagining the 'truth' about Middle-earth.

And if one is Robert Foster for example, I think it makes sense to describe this 'shared' version in any guide [whether he had HME to work with or not].

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

I also do not think the Silmarillion was ever intended to be canon, nor is held to be so by Christopher Tolkien.

I would be interested to know if CT or the Estate has ever issued any statement to that effect.

Originally Posted by Galin

Possibly to make certain threads '1977 Silmarillion only', but that's really only a solution to a specific aspect of discussing the Elder Days. Some have not read HME nor want to, but I agree that the 1977 Silmarillion can be used as a 'shared internal canon'.

I mean Christopher Tolkien's version is the only book version to work with and we are not likely to get another -- which, if we did, would probably contain more descisions not everyone would agree with in any case.

You have more clearly stated my own belief. HOME leaves far too much leeway for endless debates for me, as an "average" Tolkien reader, to be comfortable with. Unless CT or the Estate later produces something better, the best bet for me is the published Silmarillion.

Originally Posted by Galin

Based on what can be found in HME and elsewhere, everyone's personal Silmarillions will possibly be different

Just so, and for the purposes of an internet forum discussion, it's much easier to have a common standard, or else it's pointless.

[Mithalwen]

I don't see that there is a huge problem. I can't recall him using canon as a term but I might be wrong. In note39 to Cirion and Eorl in UT he suggests independent and distinct traditions to re solve differences in versions of the origins of the house of Dol Amroth which doesn't suggest a slave to the concept of canon.

I find that there are almost always factual errors anytime anything I happen to really know about is reported in the media and there are often variants in legends, even in the interpretation of historical evidence, it is almost more authentic to have variants in a synthetic mythology. As with real history it is a question of balancing evidence and probabilities. Of course not everyone is going to get involved in it the texts to that extent.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

What's the solution, then?

I don’t see what the problem is to which you seek a solution.

Everyone can't be an HOME scholar, devoting much time to study of earlier drafts and variants, not to mention various notes and letters produced by J.R.R.T. in his later years. There's an endless capacity for debate if one takes your tack, for the fact is, if CT's version is unacceptable to you, there will never be an edition that satisfies. If that's all right with you, so be it.

That is certainly alright with me. As I pointed out, discussions do constantly slip into details not in the published Silmarillion. If you want to try to make a rule that no mention of material in HoME or other material published after Tolkien’s death is to be allowed in this forum, you are allowed to try. I don’t see you being successful.

Currently it is not necessary that members of this forum have even read The Lord of the Rings, much less the Silmarillion. There are no rules save that all discussions shouldtin some way relate to Tolkien, and even that is not really enforced.

For the purpose of discussion such as we have on this forum, there must be a standard to base opinions on, and The Silmarillion, for all its faults, fills the bill. I choose to see the published work as canon, because I do not see how it will be bettered.

There is a standard. The discussions are supposed to be related to Tolkien. That has until now been sufficient. Some discussions have been published solely about the volume Unfinished Tales. There is at least one thread solely on The Fall of Arthur. You are attempting to install new rules that have never been in place on this or any other Tolkien forum so far as I know. Can you understand why not?

I reject your limited standard on discussion just as much as Christopher Tolkien has and as most ĭf not all posters on this forum have, by being quite ready to discuss HoME material in any discussion where it fits. You surely know this. I don’t see anything to be gained by an attempt at dumbing down.

Originally Posted by Mornorngûr

I personally consider 'The Silmarillion' to be canon, whilst at the same time incorporating into my point of view all the later writings that fit the general history without drastically altering the storyline.

I personally reject the concept of canon.

Another example could be that we can accept that Turgon saved Idril from drowning during the crossing; but we can not accept that Celeborn came from Valinor with Galadriel (Well I refuse to accept it anyway )

Then don’t use the word “we”. Personally I accept all Tolkien fictional writing as just that, fiction. And that fiction, unpublished in Tolkien’s lifetime exists in variant versions, all of which is often discussed on this forum regardless of where it was published.

So you reject Tolkien’s later story that Galadriel came with Celeborn from Vainor separately from the other Exiles. Do you also reject Galadriel’s own statement of her origin as it appears in Book II chapter 7 of The Fellowship of the Ring:

He [Celeborn] has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothron or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, aǹd together through ages of the world we have fought together the long defeat.

But the published Silmarillion claims in the last sentence of chapter 14:

But none of the Noldor went ever over Ered Lindon, while their realm lasted.

This is in accord with Tolkien’s later account in which during the Second Age, not the First, long after the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin, and after Galadriel had married Celeborn, the two of them crossed the mountains into Lothlórien.

I neither reject nor accept any of the accounts, but merely note that they differ. Christopher Tolkien seems to do the same.