What do you fight for?

[Galadriel55]

First of all, thank you for the congratulations and the response! Both are greatly appreciated!

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I definitely agree about this. To tell the truth, Beren just happened to be "in the right place at the right time" to fight against the great Evil, but his "big deed" wasn't really so special. If I wanted to be provocative, I could say "had Beren's oath involved instead stealing an earring from the leader of a group of highwayman, he wouldn't get such a praise for his big heroic deed". On top of that, it is indeed Lúthien who does most of the work necessary to pass all the dangers on the road and get inside Angband. It is a wonderful credit to her love for Beren, which is probably one of the main points of the story, but as for Beren's heroism, one has to give her more credit for the actual deeds (that's not to say that Beren didn't show similar dedication and also bravery by taking the quest).

And yes. It is obvious that Beren's tale omits the "minor skirmishes in the woods" stuff, which was THE fight against evil ("morally", or how should I say it), but his quest was purely personal. In fact, from the material we have, Barahir should be the one praised more than Beren: here we have a heroic story of a heroic fighter against evil, complete with heroic ending with terrible betrayal.

Very, very, very true. We're thinking the same thoughts here.

Originally Posted by Legate

(But of course, he has more "bad reputation points" to compensate for other things, such as killing Mim and Brandir and all that, but that's another angle of view, and I am not going to start an elaboration on that now.)

Turin has enough faults without piling Mim onto him as well! :P

But seriously, I think you might be the first one who sees Turin from my perspective. I was avoiding him, but since you brought him up I may as well open the fighting arena.

Turin has two types of "bad moments" - bad character moments and bad luck moments, where he helps Morgoth more than he fights him. Overall, though, I do not find him a bad person, because, although I do not always agree with his actions, I can understand them. He does not do anything evil rationally understanding that it's evil, like the sons of Feanor are wont to do. He is either deceived or crazed, or he truly believes that he is doing the right thing. Despite his unsuccessful and unfortunate attempts, if you look at his intentions, you'll discover that he's a much better person than is seen at first sight. Many times when he ends up destroying his friends and comrades, he was actually doing his best to give Morgoth a fight.

That aside, though, I want to flip through COH looking for some motives. As a child, Turin first loses Lalaith (which he does not link with Morgoth, other than from his parents' words, but it builds up the beginnings of hate in him), then he sees his homeland overrun by Easterlings, everybody he knew either killed or enslaved, then is parted from all of that completely. That, and the disappeared messengers that ended the last ties with Dor-lomin, pushed Turin to take up arms and ask Thingol for men to lead against Morgoth: "for onset against our foe I long, rather than defence". Thingol and Melian convince him to stay at the marches for the time being, but this is a guiding thought for him after he leaves Doriath. And once again, at this stage it is the "wrongs of his kin" that drive the fight.

When Turin starts living with the outlaws, he is "not greedy, and took little thought for himself", but overtime with such company he also stepped down the moral ladder, but still "pity and disgust would wake in him". Nonetheless, most of the time he more or less ignores, and I assume takes part in, whatever foul deeds the outlaws did. At this point he does not really fight Morgoth, or fight anyone really, but just lives - because it's darn tough to just live in circumstances like his. You could even say that he aids evil – but not without a grain of indignant conscience.

Killing Forweg is a very questionable deed, which I can’t assign to any category. It seems as though Turin protected the woman instinctively, but even if he stopped his strike on time to spare his commander’s life I can’t imagine him standing by watching as Forweg did what he came for. It seems as though Turin tries to do justice both for the girl and for the outlaws – he is unwilling to betray them for two reasons: firstly, he will not “buy a favour” on principle, and secondly, he really does consider them his fellows. Androg called the slaying “evil work”, but it was both unintentional (Turin was expecting orcs) and just. It would have been evil to not protect the woman, but it also would have been evil to give her the wolf-heads she asked for, and Turin avoided both paths. Here I think is a rare situation where Turin both showed himself wonderfully and it worked out well, without a tragedy waiting behind the corner.

Turin is a leader in his nature, and wherever he goes he rises to the top with men rallying behind him, be it in Doriath, with the outlaws, in Nargothrond, or in Brethil. When he becomes the captain, the first thing he does is to rebuke his men about their deeds and their (or, rather, Androg’s) inability to see or feel anything noble, and then leads them away to “earn less hatred of our own kind”. Moreover, after Beleg’s arrival, Turin is overwhelmed with guilt and swears not to slay any Men of Elf again. When they talk later, Turin says that he will not part with the outlaws and that he sees goodness in each of them and is trying to cultivate that goodness, despite Beleg’s skepticism about the matter. While this is not a direct fight against Morgoth, he fights Morgoth’s evil just the same within his band; in my opinion, those actions more than level up whatever deeds he allowed the band to do before.

Oh my goodness. I’m only half-way through the book, and with the biggest fish still to come, and I can already submit this as a character analysis essay for my upcoming English class. I will stop here at this stage and say only that so far (and in the future too) Turin has a good sense of good, so to speak, and it’s something that could motivate people to fight, but he doesn’t fight for good, he only hates Morgoth and his minions and fights against Morgoth – not even against evil, but specifically against Morgoth. It is only because he considers some evil deeds to be orc-work and fit for Angband that he puts a stop to them. It’s a hate and an effort that deserves respect.