Gollum and Pleasure

[Mister Underhill]

I'd echo Pervinca (Hi! Don't think our paths have crossed yet.) and Inzila that Frodo in Mordor is a bit of an exceptional case, though as Pervinca points out, the question of whether the Ring is somehow complicit in the "darkening" of Frodo is an interesting one. Is it a direct effect of the Ring? Or is it simply a very human reaction to his overall experience? I usually come down on the side of an interpretation which favors humanity and complex human reactions over characters being the victims of magical effects. It's one of the things, I think, that sets Middle-earth apart from other fantasy creations, where one can often detect a whiff of roleplaying and videogame influence in the treatment of magic. Tolkien's magic is, by and large, more subtle, more ethereal, less direct. It nudges rather than bludgeons.

As an example, I really didn't like the way Jackson interpreted Théoden as being literally under Saruman's spell, rather than having been manipulated and cozened by Wormtongue acting as Saruman's agent. I recognize that there's a continuum here though.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

I'd echo Pervinca (Hi! Don't think our paths have crossed yet.) and Inzila that Frodo in Mordor is a bit of an exceptional case, though as Pervinca points out, the question of whether the Ring is somehow complicit in the "darkening" of Frodo is an interesting one. Is it a direct effect of the Ring? Or is it simply a very human reaction to his overall experience? I usually come down on the side of an interpretation which favors humanity and complex human reactions over characters being the victims of magical effects. It's one of the things, I think, that sets Middle-earth apart from other fantasy creations, where one can often detect a whiff of roleplaying and videogame influence in the treatment of magic. Tolkien's magic is, by and large, more subtle, more ethereal, less direct. It nudges rather than bludgeons.

As an example, I really didn't like the way Jackson interpreted Théoden as being literally under Saruman's spell, rather than having been manipulated and cozened by Wormtongue acting as Saruman's agent. I recognize that there's a continuum here though.

Hi Mr Underhill! The "darkening" of Frodo in Mordor, I think, is the deliberate effect of the Ring trying to save itself from destruction - somehow or in some way sensing its increasing proximity to the place where that might happen. As if that were part of the "design" that Sauron put into it, as a safeguard.

Potter haters - don't jump on me for this - but I always felt the way the locket horcrux (protected from being taken, let alone destroyed) was hidden under a potion that was terrible torture to drink (and could only be removed by one forcing another to drink it, so that one alone could not remove it) was similar, in a sense, to the impossibility of the Ring being cast away (except, as Tolkien said, by one of the Wise) by act of will at its point of maximum power. There is definitely powerful magic here, but much less obvious. However, Sauron was called the "Necromancer" in "The Hobbit," and seems to have used magic of a very dark kind to safeguard his precious Ring.

It's interesting that you use the word "darkening" - since it acts both by moral corruption and by cruelty (darkening pleasure, tainting peace of mind, becoming painfully heavy) - trying to break down the bearer's resistance by both physical and mental cruelty - and using that cruelty to help break down the purity of the bearer.

The after-effects that Frodo felt from this experience were probably just by-products of being exposed to all this for so long. How much is attributable to permanent damage done by the Ring at and near its point of maximum power is difficult to gauge. A huge part of the damage is the fact that he claimed it at the end, of course. But the things that trigger specific periods of illness don't refer to the time of maximum exposure in Mordor. One of the triggers is the memory of being parted from it, since he falls ill on the anniversary of Shelob's bite, when the Ring is taken from him, and when awakens in Cirith Ungol, believing all lost. The other is from the Morgul-knife ... which would probably have continued to give him trouble even if he hadn't gone any further than Rivendell (I think only one other survivor of a Morgul splinter (not a hobbit, but still), is actually recorded, and he died within about 12 years).

So, difficult to say, but I think the Ring's power in Mordor was its own survival mechanism. It pulls out all the stops not to get destroyed and will use any amount of cruelty to do it (it was made by Sauron, after all), but I don't think it "intended" (as far as Sauron could give it "intention") or thought of damage beyond that. I wonder if Sauron ever thought of another even wielding it, and how much of his thought and power he put into the Ring being able to create trouble to another who possessed it? Frodo does not desire power, but he has a natural fatalism. This is what the Ring latches on to in him, turning it to despair. (In Sam, it would have latched on to his positive side, his desire to do things, and put things right, corrupting good deeds to bad).

As an example, I really didn't like the way Jackson interpreted Théoden as being literally under Saruman's spell, rather than having been manipulated and cozened by Wormtongue acting as Saruman's agent. I recognize that there's a continuum here though.

I think Jackson probably favours the bludgeon over the nudge.

[jallanite]

Gollum still finds pleasure in matters other than food, at least in Gandalf’s thought. In the chapter “The Shadow of the Past” in The Fellowship of the Ring Gandalf says:

There was a little corner of his mind that was still his own, and light came through it, as through a chink in the dark; light out of the past. It was actually pleasant, I think, to hear a kindly voice again, bringing up memories of wind, and trees, and sun on the grass, and such forgotten things.

Gandalf’s suspicions are borne out by the pleasure Gollum takes in serving Frodo, until Sam ruins it through his suspicions of Gollum’s behaviour.

Then there is the passage from the beginning of “The Passage of the Marshes” in The Two Towers:

Gollum turned to the right, southward more or less, and splashed along with his feet in the shallow stony stream. He seemed greatly delighted to feel the water; and chuckled to himself, sometimes even croaking in a sort of song.

The cold hard lands
they bites our hands,
               they gnaws our feet.
The rocks and stones
are like old bones
               all bare of meat.
But stream and pool
is wet and cool:
               so nice for feet!
And now we wish
—
—
—

‘Ha! ha! What does we wish?’ he said, looking sidelong at the hobbits. ‘We’ll tell you,’ he croaked. ‘He guessed it long ago, Baggins guessed it.’ A glint came into his eyes, and Sam catching the gleam in the darkness thought it far from pleasant.

Alive without breath;
as cold as death;
never thirsting, ever drinking;
clad in mail, never clinking.
Drowns on dry land,
thinks an island
is a mountain;
thinks a fountain
is a puff of air.
So sleek, so fair!
               What a joy to meet!
We only wish
to catch a fish
               so juicy-sweet!

Gollum turns his experiences of wandering and guiding the hobbits into excellent poetry. He recalls his riddle to Bilbo and playfully adds lines about the fish meeting an island and what the fish might think of a fountain. Eating is part of this verse but only part of it. There is surely also joy in the making and reciting of the verse for its own sake.

Here Gollum has just accepted Frodo as his master and we see him at his best.

[Juicy-Sweet]

I see more sources of pleasure in Gollum

1: The pleasure of satisfying one's curiosity. He travelled for 76 years. A lot of it evidently spent in places not related to "Baggins Shire". For instance, he hardly expected to find the Shire in Shelob's cave which he mush have visited in this period.

I can only make sense of this by picturing him as a fellow thinking "whoa there's a vave, I wonder what's down there?" and then go look. Peddling around in Shelob's lair for no particular reason, it's only something vevy curious (and courageous) explorer-types would do.

2: He seems also to take pleasure in PRIDE, in thinking about how good he or smart he was in handling difficult situations plus how good his skills are at sneaking and escaping and such.

To me he also seems to take pride in knowing secrets no one else knows - it makes him special you know

"Swamp. Yes, yes. Come master, we will take you on safe paths through the mist. Come hobbits come. Real quickly. I found it, I did. The way through the marshes. Orcs don’t use it, orcs don’t know it. They go round for miles and miles, come quickly, swift and quick as shadows we must be."

"Orcs don't know it" instead of "there's no orcs there" seems to me to mean "orcs are stupid and gollum is smart, GOD am i clever!"

I think there are two similar quotes about Cirith Ungol but I don't have a LOTR copy with me. Once he mentions is'a VERY secret stais but hey guys, guess who knows about it? ME, gollum!

(as for the connection between Gollum and sex mentioned in this thread: YEECH! lol)