Saruman's Words to Gandalf and Galadriel

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Saruman does something similar with Frodo at Bag End, telling him he will have neither good health or a long life, again trying to spoil whatever sense of victory or accomplishment the heroes have.

And his words in that scene are a key statement:

But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell.

Saruman has indeed lost his power to manipulate people and events, but apparently retains some knowledge of the future. Perhaps it's his knowledge of Ring-lore that gives him this insight?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Saruman has indeed lost his power to manipulate people and events, but apparently retains some knowledge of the future. Perhaps it's his knowledge of Ring-lore that gives him this insight?

Maybe his former knowledge, or his former greatness, or his "maiarity". But whatever he predicts, he does so truthfully, though he may twist it somewhat to the negative side. He lies somewhat, but not in his foretelling.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Maybe his former knowledge, or his former greatness, or his "maiarity". But whatever he predicts, he does so truthfully, though he may twist it somewhat to the negative side. He lies somewhat, but not in his foretelling.

I think Saruman simply is, after all, Wise (however foolish he had become). He simply sees the reality, because he knows the reality on a deeper level than an average mortal. On top of that, he also knows it already on the existential level (in contrary to Hobbits, who are at that point still happy and with the prospect of happy lives at home): he has lost everything and thinks that what he is experiencing now (the homelessness after destruction of Orthanc, for instance) will happen also to Galadriel and Gandalf (the homelessness after e.g. Lórien fades out, and nobody has any more need of Grey Pilgrim's counsel).

Originally Posted by nikkolas

Saruman was decidedly unstable by this point but the underlined passage seems significant. What does he mean that the Elves and everyone doomed themselves by overthrowing him?

I think it definitely does not mean that they doomed themselves by overthrowing him. By "you pulled down your own house when you destroyed mine", I think Saruman simply refers to the fact that while they made him lose everything, at the same time Gandalf and Galadriel have lost everything too. It is not a causative sentence, it is simply finding his own malicious bit of happiness in the fact that he isn't the only one whose time of power is over. The main point being, Saruman speaks a lot about his experience from the Ring-lore ("I did not spend long study on these matters for naught") - knowing that with the destruction of the One, all the Rings lose their power, the Dominion of Men comes, and the Wizards or Elves aren't going to remain in Middle-Earth.

As an addendum, I would also say that I think Saruman also wants to, somehow in the manner of a bitter politician who had lost his elections badly, throw into Gandalf and Galadriel's face the fact that "you ruined our country's bright future which I might have brought, had you joined me." So, "look you fools, you could have wielded all the power in the world, kept the Elves ruling Middle-Earth with the Ring and with everything you would have wanted, and you have thrown it all away". It is simply all over again the old argument of Boromir's, "why do we speak of throwing away and destroying the Ring? Why not use it?" Saruman does not see the hope, he only sees the loss - in that way, you could call him "a blind pessimist". In fact, I think he deserves that title the most of all, he is the "man with tunnel vision" no.1 - he exhibits these signs already by refusing coming down to Gandalf even when offered mercy.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

It really just shows how foolish Saruman has become: in his reckoning, the loss of power in Middle Earth that Galadriel and the Elves now face is terrible; for a long time (until she was tested by Frodo) Galadriel would, I think, have agreed with him. But now, having forsaken the Ring and the desire for power, she and the other Elves have acknowledged that dominion in Middle Earth is really not worth very much, in the end, and that the real good is to accept their place in the West. I mean, lets face it, they get to spend the rest of their immortal lives with the Valar! Saruman, still embroiled in his idea that power is the only good, sees no value in their journey...and that's his great tragedy.

The irony of his statement is apparent: he is happy that the others are houseless now, but Gandalf has never had a home (except his true home in the west), never having given way to the illusion that dominion in this world is of any real value.

[Inziladun]

I think it's also interesting that Saruman says Galadriel's ship will be grey. The ship that actually bore her to the West was, of course, white. Probably it's another stab at pointing out the fading of the Firstborn. In The Silmarillion, it is said that when the Three Rings lost their power, to the Elves "the world grew old and grey". Saruman sure goes out of his way to strike at what he perceives as the most vulnerable point of his enemies, doesn't he? He had become so full of hate and pride that one shudders to think what he might have been capable of had Gandalf not stripped him of his authority and most of his power.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think it's also interesting that Saruman says Galadriel's ship will be grey. The ship that actually bore her to the West was, of course, white. Probably it's another stab at pointing out the fading of the Firstborn. In The Silmarillion, it is said that when the Three Rings lost their power, to the Elves "the world grew old and grey". Saruman sure goes out of his way to strike at what he perceives as the most vulnerable point of his enemies, doesn't he?

Random remark - this actually made me wonder how did Gandalf and Galadriel react to this, I mean, on the inside - they didn't certainly seem affected on the outside, and they knew (rationally) that Saruman was just insulting them and that he, on top of that, did not really see the true state of things, but still, I wonder if this might have struck home - them realising that they really are leaving Middle-Earth and that lot of its beauty is fading and so on; to Galadriel that she is losing Lórien and all that... I mean, that you don't show anything (or even get over it) does not mean you can't be hurt by what somebody says, even if you know it's merely out of hate and ultimately, he does not even grasp the truth of it... but there was some part of it which could have resonated with something G&G were just trying to deal with...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Random remark - this actually made me wonder how did Gandalf and Galadriel react to this, I mean, on the inside - they didn't certainly seem affected on the outside, and they knew (rationally) that Saruman was just insulting them and that he, on top of that, did not really see the true state of things, but still, I wonder if this might have struck home - them realising that they really are leaving Middle-Earth and that lot of its beauty is fading and so on; to Galadriel that she is losing Lórien and all that... I mean, that you don't show anything (or even get over it) does not mean you can't be hurt by what somebody says, even if you know it's merely out of hate and ultimately, he does not even grasp the truth of it... but there was some part of it which could have resonated with something G&G were just trying to deal with...

Oh, I think Saruman should have known the state of things for Elrond and Galadriel quite well. After all, who had a better understanding of the Rings of Power than he? That's why I think he chose his words pointedly.

I don't think Gandalf was affected by Saruman's taunts, other than to feel pity for the low state he'd acquired. The destruction of the One meant that Gandalf was going home, mission accomplished.

Galdriel, on the other hand, likely did feel sorrow at the prospect of the loss of Lórien, and maybe a sense of defeat that ultimately, her efforts to make a corner of Middle-earth into her own personal Aman, came to naught.