Luthien weilding Vilya

[Belegorn]

Tar that is interesting. It appears to fly in the face of everything that has been attributed to Fëanor. Look at the first quote for instance. I would assume that Lúthien was one of the Children of Iluvatar. There is a contradiction there.

"Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind... of all the Children of Iluvatar" [Sil, p. 112]

There are instances where terms like these, greatest, mightiest, or fairest have been used for various characters. I'd ask if it's this one or that?

Contradiction aside, whether Luthien, or Galadriel, I would say that Sauron or some other great force of Melkor's could take down any realm in the F.A. held by different bearers of the Rings. The Elves are powerful and even the really top one's like Glorfindel, who is said to be nearly equal to the Maiar, could not stop them. If he is held to be so powerful, and Galadriel who is greater imo as per, "the mightiest and fairest of all the elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil, p. 370], could have her realm toppled by a Ringless Sauron if he chose to throw all of his strength at her, then any other Elven kingdom could be destroyed no matter what Elf held a Ring of Power.

[Galadriel55]

Luthien seemed to care very little about politics before Beren, and she only started caring about them when they interfered with her love interest. Would she really take up the burden of ruling/safeguarding Doriath? She seems quite content to live an isolated life with Beren. But if she lives to find out that Doriath is desperately in need of someone powerful to do that... hmmm... I suppose it's possible.

Saying that, though, I still think that Doriath and the other kingdoms would not hold against Morgoth. It's not even against Morgoth that they are holding, but against themselves (and once again the question comes up of how much the Curse of the Noldor is doing the evil and how much evil is done by men's decisions). The history might have looked different, Earendil might have been born to different parents several centuries later, or someone like Celegorm and Curufin might have gotten angry that they weren't chosen as the Ringbearers and the ruin of Doriath might have been even more absolute... who knows. The whole Silmarillion is about slow defeat, and even the victory at the end is not a true victory. It's the way it would be whatever would have happened.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Tar that is interesting. It appears to fly in the face of everything that has been attributed to Fëanor. Look at the first quote for instance. I would assume that Lúthien was one of the Children of Iluvatar. There is a contradiction there.

"Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind... of all the Children of Iluvatar" [Sil, p. 112]

Contradiction, perhaps. But JRRT is fond of using these superlatives, for various characters. However, in this instance it is a direct comparison, and I give it some weight.
As for your quote see this:
"Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart", Sil. p. 60.
If Feanor was the mightiest in all parts of body, how could Fingolfin be stronger? Yet JRRT says Fingolfin was the strongest.

There are instances where terms like these, greatest, mightiest, or fairest have been used for various characters. I'd ask if it's this one or that?

Contradiction aside, whether Luthien, or Galadriel, I would say that Sauron or some other great force of Melkor's could take down any realm in the F.A. held by different bearers of the Rings. The Elves are powerful and even the really top one's like Glorfindel, who is said to be nearly equal to the Maiar, could not stop them. If he is held to be so powerful, and Galadriel who is greater imo as per, "the mightiest and fairest of all the elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil, p. 370], could have her realm toppled by a Ringless Sauron if he chose to throw all of his strength at her, then any other Elven kingdom could be destroyed no matter what Elf held a Ring of Power.

Interestingly, in Letter 245 JRRT writes:
"In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond." [Gandalf was dealt with previously, I tend to consider this more generally referring to the great among the Eldar of the time.]

Elrond (granted he is not an Elf) would be especially capable, I think due to his Maiarin heritage.

But personally, the best quest to ask is greatest at what? As mighty as Galadriel is, would she beat Elrond in a sword fight? Is Luthien going to be able to be able to out wrestle Ecthelion who grappled with Gothmog?
No.
Greatest in some of these may also have a moral/spiritual context as well.

[Belegorn]

True, the superlatives are there, in abundance. Like in your first quote some of the superlatives given to his brothers are applied to Fëanor as well, "Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour,... in strength" [Sil, p. 112]

Also applied to him are "beauty" and "understanding", whereas with Finarfin "fairest" and "wise of heart" are used. So one can wonder, how is Fingolfin said to be the strongest of the brothers when Fëanor is said to be "mightiest in all parts of body" as well as in "strength", and "endurance".

Your quote from the note reads to me in this way: "especially Elrond" refers to him, like Galadriel, with conceptions of being able to wield the One, not necessarily Elrond having a better aptitude of wielding it because if you read on you will see them in the same light, apart from Gandalf.

"In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, and they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position."

Later on in Letter 246 we are told how the 2 of them rejected the One anyways. It then follows about how in wielding the Ring they would go about taking on Sauron as differing from Gandalf, who alone "might be expected to master him".

Hear me out on this and tell me what you think. Galadriel is interesting because it is said of her in The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; "she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth." [p. 241] What is interesting to me is the part that says, "a match for both the loremasters..." and the inquiries about Galadriel's fighting prowess. It is said she was a staunch defender against her uncle's massacre at Alqualondë. This is basically the only text that I know of her mentioned in actual combat. Now, the text I quoted says she was a match for the loremasters. Interestingly enough a text reads that the loremasters of the Noldor:

"Nor were the 'loremasters' a separate guild of GENTLE SCRIBES, soon burned by the Orks of Angband upon pyres of books. They were mostly even as Fëanor, the greatest, kings, princes and warriors, such AS THE VALIANT CAPTAINS OF GONDOLIN" [The Peoples of Middle-earth, Note 23]

In other words they were not nerds or some such with no aptitude to fight. Rather than being gentle scribes they are "as the valiant captains of Gondolin". Therefore, perhaps it is safe to assume, that Galadriel too was such as these and would probably be able to best Elrond in a sword fight.

[Mithalwen]

I don't know I want to get deep into this because for me there are too many variants from the rings as written, in this hypothesis that one might as well say if it were a different book it would be a different book... however I so agree that you have to take the superlatives with a pinch of salt especially when referencing drafts and versions not published by JRRT. Some characters didn't appear til later. However regardless I think Luthien would have been useless aa a ringbearer because she is essrntially passive and only acts when motivated by the need to fulfil her own desire.

[Pervinca Took]

I wouldn't call Luthien passive. I agree, though, that, highly heroic as her and Beren's deeds were, their motives were far less selfless than those of many others in The Silmarillion.

[Mithalwen]

She lets herself get shut in a tree.. I find it very hard to see a woman as powerful when she can't even manage daddy...a skill most girls pick up by five months...

[Pervinca Took]

Can't believe she really couldn't manage a twit like Thingol. I think she was just letting him think she couldn't get out of it, when all along she knew the opening spell.

I've always honoured Beren and Luthien's tale because I knew/read it was Tolkien's favourite - but it seems a little like the Romeo and Juliet tale of Middle-earth - and now in comfortable middle age, I find the latter a pair of rather selfish irritants. Beren and Luthien less so, but in the same semantic field. Then again, passionate young love (and how it blinds people to all else) is as true to real life as anything else in Tolkien's mythology. It has a rightful place there. I just admire other characters more (although as a younger person I probably felt differently).

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

She lets herself get shut in a tree.. I find it very hard to see a woman as powerful when she can't even manage daddy...a skill most girls pick up by five months...

True. You said the same thing I said about Lúthien in an earlier post. I cannot see her having charge of any state. Being effeminate in all honesty is not a good quality in a monarch as we have seen with Alexander of Rome. He let his mother basically control him and the army murdered him.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

True, the superlatives are there, in abundance. Like in your first quote some of the superlatives given to his brothers are applied to Fëanor as well, "Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour,... in strength" [Sil, p. 112]

Also applied to him are "beauty" and "understanding", whereas with Finarfin "fairest" and "wise of heart" are used. So one can wonder, how is Fingolfin said to be the strongest of the brothers when Fëanor is said to be "mightiest in all parts of body" as well as in "strength", and "endurance".

Exactly. To much stock can be put in the superlatives.
[/quote]
Your quote from the note reads to me in this way: "especially Elrond" refers to him, like Galadriel, with conceptions of being able to wield the One, not necessarily Elrond having a better aptitude of wielding it because if you read on you will see them in the same light, apart from Gandalf.[/quote]
I can't read it that way. The appearing to conceive is not in doubt. Hence the 'If so' necessarily refers to the 'aptitude', or ability to use it against Sauron.

As your following quote showed, however, it would have ended up being a deceit regardless of the wielder.

Hear me out on this and tell me what you think. Galadriel is interesting because it is said of her in The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; "she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth." [p. 241] What is interesting to me is the part that says, "a match for both the loremasters..." and the inquiries about Galadriel's fighting prowess. It is said she was a staunch defender against her uncle's massacre at Alqualondë. This is basically the only text that I know of her mentioned in actual combat. Now, the text I quoted says she was a match for the loremasters. Interestingly enough a text reads that the loremasters of the Noldor:

"Nor were the 'loremasters' a separate guild of GENTLE SCRIBES, soon burned by the Orks of Angband upon pyres of books. They were mostly even as Fëanor, the greatest, kings, princes and warriors, such AS THE VALIANT CAPTAINS OF GONDOLIN" [The Peoples of Middle-earth, Note 23]

In other words they were not nerds or some such with no aptitude to fight. Rather than being gentle scribes they are "as the valiant captains of Gondolin". Therefore, perhaps it is safe to assume, that Galadriel too was such as these and would probably be able to best Elrond in a sword fight.

My thoughts in short are: 'Athlete' does not necessarily equal warrior, 'mostly' does not equal all, Elven-women, as Galadriel did here, would fight fiercely in defense of home and kindred, this does not necessarily mean they were soldiers. This is the only circumstance we have of Galadriel engaging in physical battle (see for example, Celeborn led the army to Dol Guldur, Galadriel (much like Luthien at Minas Tirith) just utilized her power to throw down the walls, after the fighting was done), whereas Elrond seems to have participated in the War of Wrath, and fought through battles and sieges in the Second (and possibly Third) Age. So Galadriel besting Elrond in physical combat would be dubious at best (much less a Fingolfin or Fingon or Maedhros).

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

My thoughts in short are: 'Athlete' does not necessarily equal warrior, 'mostly' does not equal all, Elven-women, as Galadriel did here, would fight fiercely in defense of home and kindred, this does not necessarily mean they were soldiers. This is the only circumstance we have of Galadriel engaging in physical battle (see for example, Celeborn led the army to Dol Guldur, Galadriel (much like Luthien at Minas Tirith) just utilized her power to throw down the walls, after the fighting was done), whereas Elrond seems to have participated in the War of Wrath, and fought through battles and sieges in the Second (and possibly Third) Age. So Galadriel besting Elrond in physical combat would be dubious at best (much less a Fingolfin or Fingon or Maedhros).

Certainly "athlete" does not mean warrior. Many athletes are not warriors. Some may become warriors, or vice-versa, or be both. My point, however, was not Galadriel's comparisons to others as an athlete, but her comparison to the loremasters. The loremasters are pointed out as being, not "gentle scribes", but "as the valiant captains of Gondolin". They were warriors. This is what I meant which is why I quoted the texts for you. The one where she is compared not only to the athletes, but also to the loremasters, "a match for BOTH the loremasters AND athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth" and the other text describing the loremasters not as "gentle scribes" but as warriors. If this is the case, again I ask you, is it safe to assume that Galadriel was not only a great athlete, but also an excellent warrior.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Certainly "athlete" does not mean warrior. Many athletes are not warriors. Some may become warriors, or vice-versa, or be both. My point, however, was not Galadriel's comparisons to others as an athlete, but her comparison to the loremasters. The loremasters are pointed out as being, not "gentle scribes", but "as the valiant captains of Gondolin". They were warriors. This is what I meant which is why I quoted the texts for you. The one where she is compared not only to the athletes, but also to the loremasters, "a match for BOTH the loremasters AND athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth" and the other text describing the loremasters not as "gentle scribes" but as warriors. If this is the case, again I ask you, is it safe to assume that Galadriel was not only a great athlete, but also an excellent warrior.

I think I addressed that when I said mostly does not equal all. But yes, I think it is safe to assume that Galadriel was not a warrior. I think it quite safe to assume that in purely physical combat, Galadriel would not have been a match for Elrond, or Fingolfin or Fingon or Celeborn (or Aragorn or Legolas or Gimli). Depending on what weapons Aredhel regularly used in the hunt, I would presume Aredhel as having a better ability in physical combat.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

I think I addressed that when I said mostly does not equal all. But yes, I think it is safe to assume that Galadriel was not a warrior. I think it quite safe to assume that in purely physical combat, Galadriel would not have been a match for Elrond, or Fingolfin or Fingon or Celeborn (or Aragorn or Legolas or Gimli). Depending on what weapons Aredhel regularly used in the hunt, I would presume Aredhel as having a better ability in physical combat.

Oh I think she was a match for Celeborn And I think ahe could cope qith Gimli and Legolas..on a more serious note.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

I think I addressed that when I said mostly does not equal all.

Thanks for the replies. I was just thinking that since Tolkien described Galadriel being "of Amazonian disposition" [Letter #348] and the Amazons were warrior women, that her association with the loremasters who were said to be warriors, and her participation in the battle at Alqualondë were also pointing to her being a warrior. I therefore disagree with your assertion that she would not be a match for others in physical combat.

"Even after the MERCILESS assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defense of her mother's kin, she did not turn back." [HoG&C, p. 242]

"In Fëanor's revolt that followed the Darkening of Valinor Galadriel had no part: indeed she with Celeborn fought heroically in defense of Alqualondë against the assault of the Noldor" [p. 243]

It is said that, "swords were drawn, and a bitter fight was fought upon the ships" at that battle in which, "many were slain upon either side" [Annals of Aman, p. 116] Further a note says, "Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Fëanor in defense of Alqualondë." [p. 128]

In my opinion I'd assume that Galadriel among other things was also a warrior capable of wielding weapons of war and defending herself/others. She had an Amazonian disposition, and was also compared to the loremasters who are warriors, and fought in a battle in which many had died wielding weapons of war or drowned in the sea.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Contradiction aside, whether Luthien, or Galadriel, I would say that Sauron or some other great force of Melkor's could take down any realm in the F.A. held by different bearers of the Rings. The Elves are powerful and even the really top one's like Glorfindel, who is said to be nearly equal to the Maiar, could not stop them. If he is held to be so powerful, and Galadriel who is greater imo as per, "the mightiest and fairest of all the elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil, p. 370], could have her realm toppled by a Ringless Sauron if he chose to throw all of his strength at her, then any other Elven kingdom could be destroyed no matter what Elf held a Ring of Power.

I think this is the important point. Sauron could have defeated Galadriel and conquered Lothlórien without the Ring so long as he had attended to the matter in person - is it not safe to say that had he recovered the One Ring he could have dismissed or mastered the defences of Lórien and Rivendell without having to be physically present? Regardless, Morgoth's personal potency was diminished because it was invigorating his servants; at what cost could Lúthien with Vilya have withstood Gothmog and other Balrogs leading a massive army of dragons and Orcs, equivalent to, say, the army which attacked Gondolin?

With Gondolin in mind, however, perhaps it's not unreasonable to suppose that the quantities of his strength which would have to be wasted in such an assault could be quite considerable for Morgoth; how many Balrogs could he afford to lose, or Dragons for that matter? But as Elrond told Glóin, the Three were not made as weapons of war, and I'm unsure as to what extent their power would have availed the Eldar against Morgoth's military might, or what difference it would make to any assault. It would, perhaps, be easier to speculate had Morgoth ever launched such an attack on Doriath, because I see that as the closest parallel to the Elven realms in the Third Age defended by the Rings, but it's hard to say. I'm just not convinced that it would make a huge difference. As was said:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It's not even against Morgoth that they are holding, but against themselves (and once again the question comes up of how much the Curse of the Noldor is doing the evil and how much evil is done by men's decisions).

Which I think problematises how relevant devices like this would really be to the situation, which was in several key features entirely different to the conflicts of the later Ages.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

With Gondolin in mind, however, perhaps it's not unreasonable to suppose that the quantities of his strength which would have to be wasted in such an assault could be quite considerable for Morgoth; how many Balrogs could he afford to lose, or Dragons for that matter?

Melkor's armies have taken hits before. The one he sent out to take out Doriath was annihilated by Fëanor and his people. After Gondolin he had huge armies still to unleash against the powers that finally overthrew him. He seemed to be always updating his weaponry and building up his resources. He had those metal machines against Gondolin, then he held back the flying dragons and unleashed them against the powers. I think Melkor always had enough resources for his armies and such losses could be replaced. I suppose it might be a bit harder if there were 3 realms under the protection of the Three Rings. In the end, it would just be a slower death for the Elves.