Of Domination and Tools

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I agree with this to a large extent, but I also think that in their representations of Gandalf to others there was a lot of intentional misrepresentation and lying going on.

I would agree about Saruman, but I think Denethor genuinely believes what he says of Gandalf. Maybe at some point in the past he convinced himself that Gandalf means no good, and at that point it would have been a deliberate misrepresentation, but now Denethor truly sees Gandalf as someone who could use him as a tool (and yes, he could use him as a tool) and who isn't trustworthy.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I would agree about Saruman, but I think Denethor genuinely believes what he says of Gandalf. Maybe at some point in the past he convinced himself that Gandalf means no good, and at that point it would have been a deliberate misrepresentation, but now Denethor truly sees Gandalf as someone who could use him as a tool (and yes, he could use him as a tool) and who isn't trustworthy.

This is most obvious when Denethor has fallen into madness:

‘Hope on then!’ laughed Denethor. ‘Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west. I have read thy mind and its policies. Do I not know that you commanded this halfling here to keep silence? That you brought him hither to be a spy within my very chamber? And yet in our speech together I have learned the names and purposes of all thy companions. So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me.

‘But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir. I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dastard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.’

That Gandalf is indeed ready to support Aragorn’s claim is proof to Denethor that Gandalf cannot be trusted. At the least, Denethor might think, Gandalf should have been open and honest about his support of Aragorn. But Gandalf has not been so and has forbidden Pippin to speak of Aragorn to Denethor.

As Treebeard has said, “I am not altogether on anybody’s side, because nobody is altogether on my side, if you understand me.”

Denethor is very plain about what being on his side means:

‘I would have things as they were in the days of my life,’ answered Denethor, ‘and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of the City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard’s pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.’

And, indeed, Denethor follows his declared path to his death, in part because has been deceived by Sauron, but only in part.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I would agree about Saruman, but I think Denethor genuinely believes what he says of Gandalf. Maybe at some point in the past he convinced himself that Gandalf means no good, and at that point it would have been a deliberate misrepresentation, but now Denethor truly sees Gandalf as someone who could use him as a tool (and yes, he could use him as a tool) and who isn't trustworthy.

In the Appendix Aragorn and Denethor agreed on everything except on their feelings about Gandalf/Saruman. I think before even his use of the palantir Denethor was not really in Gandalf's corner. After his use of the palantir I think he saw the return of the king, and knew who Aragorn was and grew to mistrust Gandalf.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

In the Appendix Aragorn and Denethor agreed on everything except on their feelings about Gandalf/Saruman. I think before even his use of the palantir Denethor was not really in Gandalf's corner. After his use of the palantir I think he saw the return of the king, and knew who Aragorn was and grew to mistrust Gandalf.

Actually, I think the Appendix states that Aragorn/Thorongil and Denethor were only at variance in the counsels they gave to Denethor's father, Ecthelion, in one area: Aragorn urged Ecthelion to trust Gandalf, and Denethor was for Saruman.
That seems to me another indication that Saruman and Denethor were indeed likely to have been actively communicating with one another leading up to the War of the Ring.