The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-06-2013, 06:31 AM   #1
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,328
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
With the exception of Frodo and Gandalf, who to my mind are rather clear celibates in the Catholic sense of being consecrated to something "higher," I wonder if the single nature of the rest of the Fellowship could be related to the distortion of proper nature that comes of a Sauron-run Middle-earth.

Obviously, this is most apparent with Aragorn: he cannot get married until Sauron is defeated and his thrones restored: Sauron is a clear and direct impediment to the good that would come of his marriage (which is directly manifested in the continuation of Lúthien's line among Men).

But it's not just Aragorn: from the (brief) comments that Sam gives to Frodo about his feelings for Rosie, she was expecting him to propose--only he ran off with Frodo right about when she expected. In other words, the evil of Sauron intervenes and the effect is Sam feeling divided when he ought to feel whole (Frodo's words, more or less).

Boromir too, insofar as Legate is probably right that he is married to his sword, is something of a typical Gondorian in this respect: remember the description of Minas Tirith when Pippin and Gandalf arrive: a mostly empty city, proud but with too few children. Note also that, as with Aragorn and Sam, when Sauron is removed, Gondor's fortunes change and there is new life--and more children (and thus more marriage) in Minas Tirith thereafter.

Gimli and Legolas, I think, can each be seen as typical of their races, similar to Boromir being representative of the problem affecting all Gondor: the Dwarves multiply but slowly--a process impeded by constantly fighting goblins and finding new homes--and the Elves are fading. It is notable that they do NOT marry after the War of the Ring, because for the Elves and Dwarves victory is much more bittersweet than for Men and Hobbits: the enemy is defeated, but the Age of Man is begun. They will be happy for a time, but they will not be fruitful in Middle-earth.

And that leaves Merry and Pippin, who are, truly, a bit young at the time of the War of the Ring, especially Pippin, but as far as that goes they could be said to stand in the place of the future generations who are affected by the outcome of the War of the Ring. Unlike Sam and Aragorn, they would not be married in 1419 one way or the other, but their chances of getting married in the 1420s is utterly dependent on whether or Sauron's empire stands.

Mind you, none of this is to say that Tolkien used these characters solely for any representative function vis-a-vis their marital status. But he DOES use marriage as a direct correlation for a happy, fulfilled --normal-- life, and he uses it consistently with regards to the Fellowship (and others): Gandalf and Frodo do not get a happy, normal life after the War; Gandalf by nature and Frodo by result of what he went through. Aragorn, Sam, Arwen, Rosie, Merry, Pippin, (and Faramir and Eowyn) do. Gimli and Legolas do not--not because they are unhappy, but because their fates are much more bittersweet: they do not get the same kind of fulfillment (aka progeny) that the others do.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2013, 09:36 AM   #2
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Given the dearth of women among the Inklings, the scarcity of female academics during Tolkien's time, the proscriptions against female travel (the Grand Tour of Europe was gentlemen's perogative in the eighteenth century but not a ladies') and the absence of married couples in most epic adventure stories (although not in folk tales), is it any wonder there are no married couples? Domestic concerns were never really part of high literature unless it was the likes of the (adulterous) medieval romance tradition.

After all, would it be conceivable to interrupt the quest for childbirth?

This is actually one reason why I enjoyed the Patrick Rothfuss book, The Name of the Wind: it has such well developed early episodes about a travelling troupe with families et al. Sure, they aren't on a quest adventure thingy, but the book does present a full social context before the hero is orphaned, like so many Victorian heroes and heroines (sheroes?) are. That Victorian literary tradition might also have an influence.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2013, 03:37 PM   #3
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,518
Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
1420! A note on Sam and Rosie

Most of my thoughts have already been mentioned, so instead of repeating I will just make a note about Sam. I think that the Quest really helped him marry, though not in the way it helped Aragorn. Rosie would have married him regardless, that is clear I think - how stoutly she believed in him when he left without a word, how she greeted him, etc. But Sam was too much of a boy still, and it would have taken him much more effort to make the step. The quest gave him more maturity. I'd say that he appreciates his Shire life with Rosie more due to the Quest, but that's more Merry and Pippin than him. He would have appreciated her even without all the adventuring. He's just that kind of person. But he still needed to mature.
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2013, 06:07 PM   #4
Alfirin
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
Alfirin has been trapped in the Barrow!
I think that Sam's increased maturity is also revealed in another thing; what he does vis a vis Rose after he comes back. One might expect him to marry Rose almost as soon as he gets back (or at least as soon as the Shire is repaired). He has the standing now, he is much more financially secured (remember Bilbo gave him the small sack of gold in Rivendell specifically on the grounds it would come in handy when he married.)and he's certainly EARNED a little happiness. But he doesn't. Most likely this is because he has now grown so much he has come to the conclusion that he STILL has an obligation . He knows Frodo is suffering, and has decided its his job to look after him, even if that means he can NEVER marry or have any sort of life of his own. It's only when Frodo suggests sam move into Bag End with him, realizes the problem and comes up with the solution of Sam marrying Rosie and them BOTH coming to live in Bag end (basically allowing Sam to "have his cake and eat it too") that Sam finally does it.
Alfirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 09:13 PM   #5
Firefoot
Illusionary Holbytla
 
Firefoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,547
Firefoot has been trapped in the Barrow!
Don't have a lot to add to what others have said about the Fellowship, but it did get me wondering about the Dwarves of The Hobbit - mostly Gloin, being the only Dwarf we know of with a family (correct me if I'm wrong).

But when the Dwarves set out for Erebor Gimli had already been born in 2879, making him 62 at the time of TH, making him 15-20 years younger than Fili and Kili, who were considered young/barely old enough to come along. So Gloin at the least left an 'adolescent' son at home, possibly also a wife, though it's never acknowledged. Perhaps that says something about the difference in nature between the Dwarves' quest and the Fellowship's.
Firefoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2013, 10:16 AM   #6
The Mouth of Sauron
Wight
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Barad-Dur
Posts: 196
The Mouth of Sauron has just left Hobbiton.
It just struck me that not one of the Fellowship has a spouse.

Except Aragorn, Sam, Merry and Pippin for sure. And it's perfectly possible that Legolas and Gimli eventually had wives too.
The Mouth of Sauron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2013, 11:17 AM   #7
Aganzir
Woman of Secret Shadow
 
Aganzir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells
Posts: 4,511
Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron View Post
Except Aragorn, Sam, Merry and Pippin for sure. And it's perfectly possible that Legolas and Gimli eventually had wives too.
They only married after the adventure, which was discussed here. As for Legolas and Gimli, while it's possible, I'm quite sure it would've been mentioned because it was mentioned about everybody else, and because Tolkien also told us about the more significant things that happened to them after the war.
__________________
He bit me, and I was not gentle.
Aganzir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2013, 03:50 PM   #8
Pervinca Took
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Treetops, C/O Great Smials
Posts: 5,035
Pervinca Took is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfirin View Post
I think that Sam's increased maturity is also revealed in another thing; what he does vis a vis Rose after he comes back. One might expect him to marry Rose almost as soon as he gets back (or at least as soon as the Shire is repaired). He has the standing now, he is much more financially secured (remember Bilbo gave him the small sack of gold in Rivendell specifically on the grounds it would come in handy when he married.)and he's certainly EARNED a little happiness. But he doesn't. Most likely this is because he has now grown so much he has come to the conclusion that he STILL has an obligation . He knows Frodo is suffering, and has decided its his job to look after him, even if that means he can NEVER marry or have any sort of life of his own. It's only when Frodo suggests sam move into Bag End with him, realizes the problem and comes up with the solution of Sam marrying Rosie and them BOTH coming to live in Bag end (basically allowing Sam to "have his cake and eat it too") that Sam finally does it.
He's already asked Rose to marry him by then, though, because he says to Frodo 'Now I have spoken, and she says "Well, you've wasted a year, so why wait longer?"'
__________________
"Sit by the firelight's glow; tell us an old tale we know. Tell of adventures strange and rare; never to change, ever to share! Stories we tell will cast their spell, now and for always."
Pervinca Took is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2013, 05:53 PM   #9
Alfirin
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
Alfirin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pervinca Took View Post
He's already asked Rose to marry him by then, though, because he says to Frodo 'Now I have spoken, and she says "Well, you've wasted a year, so why wait longer?"'
Asked her to marry him yes, but I think they are having some trouble setting a date. They are engaged, but I have this feeling that, had Frodo not come up with the solution, Sam would have kept putting the actual wedding off longer and longer, possibly forever so he could keep looking after Master Frodo. There's also the question of exactly what he said to Rose, whether it was a full on "Will you marry me" or a simple "I love you and would like to marry you someday" Rose's answer could sort of fit either.
Alfirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:47 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.