Túrin Afflicts the Afflicted

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It's the kind of a school bully being written as a hero, a thing he could have witnessed in the trenches and realised this possibility - well the reality of it...

Túrin does come across as something of a bully, basically using his fighting prowess as a tool to pretty much take over Nargothrond and Brethil. Physically powerful, emotionally weak, lashing out at those who remind him of his own failures, such as Brandir.
I see an echo of that later in Boromir, though obviously without the connections with "disabled" individuals.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Turin thought that he was powerful enough to take on Morgoth's army. Sador and Gwindor (and Brandir too) knew better.

Hey hey let's not forget Túrin will in due course duel with Morgoth himself and slay him!

There's a plenty of other cripples though - Maedhros, Beren, and Frodo too. The cripples in Túrin's story are different in the sense that none of them got hurt doing something heroic (well, except Gwindor, but it's more complex than that).

I agree on Inzil's point about the weak actually being the strong, but I can also see it as part of Morgoth's curse. Túrin knew Labadal before Morgoth cursed Húrin's family - but the curse seems to play a part both in Gwindor's and in Brandir's case. They opposed Túrin's rasher decisions, but their disabilities made it easier for Túrin to get his way because their people were more inclined to follow him and they couldn't stop him.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Hey hey let's not forget Túrin will in due course duel with Morgoth himself and slay him!

When he gets that done, I'll finally cut him a bit of slack.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

but the curse seems to play a part both in Gwindor's and in Brandir's case. They opposed Túrin's rasher decisions, but their disabilities made it easier for Túrin to get his way because their people were more inclined to follow him and they couldn't stop him.

That's an interesting point. Túrin's physical strength and imposing will made him a natural leader, but his wisdom was sadly lacking. And wisdom and patience were precisely what Sador, Gwindor, and Brandir tried to impart to him.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That's an interesting point. Túrin's physical strength and imposing will made him a natural leader, but his wisdom was sadly lacking. And wisdom and patience were precisely what Sador, Gwindor, and Brandir tried to impart to him.

Well, bottom line is - you need a tragic flaw for a tragic hero. What would be the point of the whole story of COH if Turin was a nice guy all around? Sure, he was rash and overconfident and proud and deaf to wise words, and you can say "children, do not try this at home", but ban me from the Downs if it's not my favourite story from the legendarium. That's exactly the beauty of the story; as the Professor said himself, happy stories make a very short and boring telling. Stop looking at it from a practical standpoint, remove yourself to the safe distance of a reader, and enjoy a good tragedy.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, bottom line is - you need a tragic flaw for a tragic hero. What would be the point of the whole story of COH if Turin was a nice guy all around? Sure, he was rash and overconfident and proud and deaf to wise words, and you can say "children, do not try this at home", but ban me from the Downs if it's not my favourite story from the legendarium. That's exactly the beauty of the story; as the Professor said himself, happy stories make a very short and boring telling. Stop looking at it from a practical standpoint, remove yourself to the safe distance of a reader, and enjoy a good tragedy.

If, say, Tuor had been the victim of Morgoth's curse, and had watched everything come crashing down on him when making good decisions, I think it would have been even more tragic. Túrin kept shooting himself in the foot, making the curse that much more workable. Someone who fails regardless of supreme effort is to me the ultimate tragedy.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If, say, Tuor had been the victim of Morgoth's curse, and had watched everything come crashing down on him when making good decisions, I think it would have been even more tragic. Túrin kept shooting himself in the foot, making the curse that much more workable. Someone who fails regardless of supreme effort is to me the ultimate tragedy.

But then where's the tragic flaw? In my opinion, a tragedy is much more tragic (to read!) when the character brings about his destruction by his own hand (which is unrelated to the tragic flaw idea but is just a personal taste). And you don't think Turin made an effort? He wasn't just being a big baby the whole time. He did the utmost to fight Morgoth, and he fought him with mind and body. He has this furious passion in him that keeps him going, so although he's down to his knees he gets up again. The fact that his relations didn't turn out that well and his plans went awry does not diminish the effort; if he's done the utmost but in the wrong direction, he's still done it.

Ah, we'll never agree on this.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Túrin kept shooting himself in the foot, making the curse that much more workable.

I don't think Túrin's decisions were particularly bad, it's just that they always had the worst possible outcome because of the curse. He couldn't have made good decisions, because it's the result that defines whether it was good or bad.

You could argue that the entire Lay of Leithian was a ridiculously bad decision, but it was actually the greatest story in the history of Middle-earth. Similarly, sending the Fellowship to destroy the Ring was an awful decision, but it turned out just fine as well.