Origins of the Great Goblin

[Rumil]

In one of the earlier texts there's reference to Boldogs, who appear to be sort of minor spirits and followers of Morgoth. IIRC they were interbred with orcs. Perhaps the Great Goblin was one in whom the Boldog ancestry 'ran true' to some extent?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rumil

In one of the earlier texts there's reference to Boldogs, who appear to be sort of minor spirits and followers of Morgoth. IIRC they were interbred with orcs. Perhaps the Great Goblin was one in whom the Boldog ancestry 'ran true' to some extent?

Even if the story of Boldog's raid on Doriath is taken as canon, I don't think the Great Goblin need be elevated to that extent. Unless of course, Boldog's race is simply shown in the uruks as generally larger and stronger than "regular" Orcs.

[Rumil]

Could be Inzil.

I've always thought of the orcs as a bit genetically unstable if you like, due to their dubious origins and variety of shapes and sizes.

For example cats look pretty much like cats, some bigger, some smaller, but all cat-like. But dogs can look very different - Chihuahua, Great Dane, Bulldog, Collie etc.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Could be Inzil.

I've always thought of the orcs as a bit genetically unstable if you like, due to their dubious origins and variety of shapes and sizes.

For example cats look pretty much like cats, some bigger, some smaller, but all cat-like. But dogs can look very different - Chihuahua, Great Dane, Bulldog, Collie etc.

But as we all know, cats are rather Orkish in their surreptitiously maleficent proclivities.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But as we all know, cats are rather Orkish in their surreptitiously maleficent proclivities.

Tolkien did think Siamese cats were fauna of Mordor.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Tolkien did think Siamese cats were fauna of Mordor.

One of the few points on which I would heartily disagree with the dear Professor. Dogs, on the other hand...

Anyway, I've posited that the Orcs were indeed not necessarily all of the same original stock. Maybe the uruks came from Elves or Men, with the "trackers" coming from the Drúedain, or something like that. Orcs did obviously possess different physical characteristics.

[Troelsfo]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Anyway, I've posited that the Orcs were indeed not necessarily all of the same original stock. Maybe the uruks came from Elves or Men, with the "trackers" coming from the Drúedain, or something like that. Orcs did obviously possess different physical characteristics.

I have more or less given up on the Orcs

The whole question of what the Orcs were, how they came to be etc. is so wrought with problems and huge inconsistencies that attempting to make sense of it inevitably creates some hybrid that is far from anything Tolkien ever imagined. Even within The Lord of the Rings he cannot settle on a single view, and we get passages that clearly reflect (even in the authorial voice) the older view that the Orcs were indeed demonic spawns created by Morgoth in mockery of the Elves, while other passages show the emergence of the new view, that the Orcs are a corruption of some pre-existing creatures.

What we know about the Drúedain was written quite late in Tolkien's life — even later than the various musing about the Orcs that we see in ‘Myths Transformed’ (Morgoth's Ring), and it is impossible to say how the hints there should be seen in connection with the statements elsewhere — all we can know is that any detailed guess, while possibly logically consistent (or as consistent as possible), almost inevitably will represent something Tolkien never imagined.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But as we all know, cats are rather Orkish in their surreptitiously maleficent proclivities.

"In ancient times, cats were worshiped as gods. They have never forgotten this."

Terry Pratchett