Do most fantasy novel nowadays have traceable elements of Tolkienism in them?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

## Michael Moorcock - despite his criticisms of Tolkien's story - does seem to be indebted to him. "Elric of Melnibone" is about the last ruler of a great kingdom, that is 10,000 years old; Elric relies on dragons, which need to sleep for 100(?) years to restore their strength; he has a sword, with a name (Storm-bringer) that is exceptionally dangerous; the name "Melnibone" vaguely recalls "Numenore"; & Elric is a sorcerer. He is almost an anti-Aragorn, or an Aragorn-as-Dark-Lord. Elric is a combo of Aragorn, Turin, Ar-Pharazon, & Sauron - a pretty unpleasant character.

Not so much Turin or Ar-Pharazon- Moorcock started writing the series before the Silmarillion was published, so in part this is actually an example of two writers drawing on the same mythological sources.

I don't think "The New Shadow" was "finishable" - Tolkien's achievement was too complete. I could have done with more info about Eldarion, though. And Aragorn's daughters.

I'm torn about "The New Shadow". It's intriguing, all right, and ends on such a chilling note that you feel frustrated there isn't any more of it- and yet, on the whole I think Tolkien made the right decision. Too many authors just can't resist yet another trip to the well (Moorcock being rather a case in point).

Anyway, welcome to the Downs!

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Not so much Turin or Ar-Pharazon- Moorcock started writing the series before the Silmarillion was published, so in part this is actually an example of two writers drawing on the same mythological sources.


I'm torn about "The New Shadow". It's intriguing, all right, and ends on such a chilling note that you feel frustrated there isn't any more of it- and yet, on the whole I think Tolkien made the right decision. Too many authors just can't resist yet another trip to the well (Moorcock being rather a case in point).

Anyway, welcome to the Downs!

## Thanks for the correction - & the welcome

[Tidesson]

Try R. Scott Bakker's trilogy, "The Prince of Nothing."

Once you get finished with that storyline, try his follow up novels, "The Aspect-Emperor," which deals with the world of Ëarwa twenty years later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Nothing

You can get a taste here of Ëarwa's history (Bakker's worldbuilding skill) that in my opinion, rivals Tolkien's Middle-Earth. http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

R. Scott Bakker's Official Website:

http://www.rscottbakker.com/

Here's a forum for his fantasy work, akin to Tolkien's here: http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/index.php

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Tidesson

...You can get a taste here of Ëarwa's history (Bakker's worldbuilding skill) that in my opinion, rivals Tolkien's Middle-Earth.

Thank you for your personal assessment, Mr. Bakker.

[Lairston]

I think its hard not to have some Tolkienism in the fantasy if you're going to include classic fantasy races like elves and dwarfs ect... But there are fantasy writers who go outside the box and don't include those. For instance Ted Dekker's fantasy series The Circle is not Tolkien and it is quite good. At least I think its good.

[Dunadanman]

I agree with someone earlier in this thread who stated it would be difficult for any post-Tolkien fantasy author to not borrow (consciously or unconsciously) from the Professor. But tales can be built off of earlier tales, if they are done right. It's a fine line. In my opinion, there are 2 aspects to a story: the constructive elements (such as setting, characters, etc) and the motive behind the story (in Tolkien's case, the promotion of honor, redemption and the lesson that good works in small hands can change history). Copycats tend to take some of the constructive elements but fail to offer a legitimate motive for their story. So it comes off hollow. Believe me, I know because I wrote a couple similar novels myself. Upon review years later, I had to admit to myself that while aspects of my writing were good, the storyline was nothing more than a flattering copy. That's why I recently shifted gears and cut right to the chase...if I am going to incorporate Tolkien, then make it obvious. So I published a parody of his works called High as a Hobbit. Some may cringe at such heresy (ha!), but at least it's honest.

[Morthoron]

Must you shill for your product every time you post? It's getting quite annoying.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by Tidesson

Try R. Scott Bakker's trilogy, "The Prince of Nothing."

Once you get finished with that storyline, try his follow up novels, "The Aspect-Emperor," which deals with the world of Ëarwa twenty years later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Nothing

You can get a taste here of Ëarwa's history (Bakker's worldbuilding skill) that in my opinion, rivals Tolkien's Middle-Earth. http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

R. Scott Bakker's Official Website:

http://www.rscottbakker.com/

Here's a forum for his fantasy work, akin to Tolkien's here: http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/index.php

I'm a huge admirer of Bakker's work in Earwa, beautiful, intricate, and unflawless. Following your timeline link, however, I was reminded again of the similarities between the corruption of Cû’jara-Cinmoi and that of Ar-Pharazon. Both are dark characters who are kings of the most powerful realms of their time. Both apparently humble the enemy of the world, one which has its origins outside of that world. That enemy ultimately seduces both with promises of immortality to destroy themselves and their nations, with enormous consequences to a storyline that occurs thousands of years later.

Just a random thought, not an important one, and in response to a year-old post, no less.

Overall I think Bakker is about as distinct from Tolkien as he could be while still writing fantasy with an elaborate feigned history. I'd say that his work--like some of Moorcock's or Donaldson's--is inspired partly by his reactions against Tolkien though.