Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Third

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It would be plausible to think that the Dwarves also minted coins, at least in places where they had gold like Moria and Erebor. After all, in Of Dwarves and Men we find that the Dwarves relied entirely on local Men for their foodstuffs, as well as the military advantage of allied horsemen, and that implies having a medium of exchange.

It wouldn't even be beyond belief that the Shire-hobbits minted coins, probably in imitation of those of the vanished Kings of Arnor, since we know that they had and worked silver. After all, there seems to have been only limited trade between North and South by Frodo's time, the North Road having fallen into disuse; Saruman's purchases of pipe-weed seem to have been novel and exceptional. In the absence of trade, how would Gondorian coin have made it in any quantity up to the backwater beyond the Baranduin? (Note also that Bilbo was able to spend freely his loot from Smaug's hoard, and I doubt he went down to the butcher expecting to pay with a slice off an engraved goblet-so I suspect that much of it was in coin form).

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It would be plausible to think that the Dwarves also minted coins, at least in places where they had gold like Moria and Erebor. After all, in Of Dwarves and Men we find that the Dwarves relied entirely on local Men for their foodstuffs, as well as the military advantage of allied horsemen, and that implies having a medium of exchange.

It wouldn't even be beyond belief that the Shire-hobbits minted coins, probably in imitation of those of the vanished Kings of Arnor, since we know that they had and worked silver. After all, there seems to have been only limited trade between North and South by Frodo's time, the North Road having fallen into disuse; Saruman's purchases of pipe-weed seem to have been novel and exceptional. In the absence of trade, how would Gondorian coin have made it in any quantity up to the backwater beyond the Baranduin? (Note also that Bilbo was able to spend freely his loot from Smaug's hoard, and I doubt he went down to the butcher expecting to pay with a slice off an engraved goblet-so I suspect that much of it was in coin form).

Actually there is a sort of third option for the dwarves and the Rohirrim (and any other groups with vaugely germanic/viking habits. In a lot of the Viking world, coins were of short supply and laws about minting your own, often harsh. So what was often used were "money bracelets" these were long spiralled armlets of gold sliver or copper (usually in the shape of a coiled snake) of standard thickness with notches in them of set distance apart. To make a payment, you would count off x notches worth and cut them off. whent he bits got too small, they would be gathered, melted down and made into a new bracelet. It's sort of similar to the "money chains" you see in Colonial Spanish production (those hyper heavly chains of gold links that you see so much of whenever they dredge up the contents of a treasure ship. they were waht you made when you didn't have the autorization to mint coins. I do think there were probably Dwaven coins (if nothing else, there would have to be gold in a form flexible enough for Smaug and other dragons to make a cfortable bed in. But there would be other options.
And the Movie cerinly assumed the Hobbits minted coins, you can buy "shire pennies" (officlaly sactioned) on the collectable market (both mint and "hobbit circulated")

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Actually there is a sort of third option for the dwarves and the Rohirrim (and any other groups with vaugely germanic/viking habits. In a lot of the Viking world, coins were of short supply and laws about minting your own, often harsh. So what was often used were "money bracelets" these were long spiralled armlets of gold sliver or copper (usually in the shape of a coiled snake) of standard thickness with notches in them of set distance apart. To make a payment, you would count off x notches worth and cut them off. whent he bits got too small, they would be gathered, melted down and made into a new bracelet.

Another interesting possibility. I still think dwarves would mostly have used coins.

And the Movie cerinly assumed the Hobbits minted coins, you can buy "shire pennies" (officlaly sactioned) on the collectable market (both mint and "hobbit circulated")

That makes me wonder who would have minted Shire pennies. The Thane, perhaps, although the authority of that office always seemed very informal.

Would the town of Bree also minted silver pennies? Especially since Butterbur is specifically stated as having them.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

That makes me wonder who would have minted Shire pennies. The Thane, perhaps, although the authority of that office always seemed very informal.

Would the town of Bree also minted silver pennies? Especially since Butterbur is specifically stated as having them.

Why couldn't the Shire and Bree have used Arnorian coins? Even though that kingdom was defunct by Buttubur's time, as long as the coins themselves were of precious metals, that shouldn't have mattered.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Why couldn't the Shire and Bree have used Arnorian coins? Even though that kingdom was defunct by Buttubur's time, as long as the coins themselves were of precious metals, that shouldn't have mattered.

True, but since that kingdom had died out hundreds of years before, if there was no other reasonable(ish) supply of coins their value would have skyrocketed.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Why couldn't the Shire and Bree have used Arnorian coins? Even though that kingdom was defunct by Buttubur's time, as long as the coins themselves were of precious metals, that shouldn't have mattered.

They probaby DID use whatever Arnorian money was still around (plus the occasional influx from a found hoard). One of the things about a specie (precious metal) based econonmy is that coins tend to be accepted no matter how old they are, provided the purity and weigh is alright until they are melted down (up until the 1820's to 30's in the Southwest you could still pay for things in Spanish reales aka "peices of eight" and those eights were still just as likey to be "cobs" (the crude colnial version) as the somewhat more contemporary Pillar Dollars (the machine struck coins) But there would need to be some re-striking from time to time, afer so long a lot of the Arnorian coins in circulation would have worn down to a point their weight would no longer be acceptable at anything like face value.

[Formendacil]

And time is a factor here--it was a millennium from the fall of Arvedui until the War of the Ring. Although I'm sure old Arthedain coin would have been accepted, that would be like American pioneers accepting coin from Alfred the Great's time--sure, they'd accept it if it was good metal, but that's a looooong time to survive in bulk. To an extent, no doubt, the coin kept circulating, but even if it diminished slowly it WOULD diminish--and wear.

Although Tolkien says that the "only" elements of government in the Shire were the postal service and the Shirriffs, I think it might not be too far out of the way to posit the possibility that there was a mint there. For one thing, it's already been noted that the Hobbits worked with silver. For another, it is conceivable that this mint was already there in the early days of the Shire, under the authority of Arthedain and that responsibility for it was assumed by the Thains after the fall of Fornost.

On the other hand, although I think the Dúnedain = Romans equation is a good one, perhaps we should look to the Dwarves rather than Arnor as the chief source of coinage in Bilbo's era. After all, we know that the Dwarves worked with gold and silver and we also know that they had a long tradition (going back to the early Second Age at least) of developing symbiotic relationships like they had in Erebor with the Dalemen: that is, a relationship of Men who provided them with food and horsemen, etc. It is also very easy to picture the Dwarves, with their concern for just payment (cf. what they owed Laketown in their negotiations with Bard and the Elvenking), having a solid reputation for consistently pure coinage, which would be accepted wherever Dwarves were known.

What is more, Dwarves moving east and west along the Great Road are the only known source of outside commerce in the Shire--a far more plausible source for coin than a sporadic filtering up from Gondor (though this may have been more common before Tharbad was finally abandoned--one gets the sense there used to be somewhat more traffic up the Greenway before the Fell Winter).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

What is more, Dwarves moving east and west along the Great Road are the only known source of outside commerce in the Shire--a far more plausible source for coin than a sporadic filtering up from Gondor (though this may have been more common before Tharbad was finally abandoned--one gets the sense there used to be somewhat more traffic up the Greenway before the Fell Winter).

I agree that Dwarves would have been the primary source of outside commerce for the Shire in the time of the War of the Ring. However, there's a variable in Saruman. He had been covertly buying tobacco for some time leading up to the War, and it is said that the "money" he paid for the merchandise was corrupting the hobbits with whom he was doing business. That would seem to be a fair amount of coinage, and I wonder what sort of currency he would have used.

[Rhun charioteer]

It seems to me that dwarves would be most likely to serve Sauron or Morgoth for the promises of wealth. The dwarves that fought for Sauron in the WotLA for example might have been promised gold, mines, Mithril, etc...

And the dwarves hardy and resilient nature makes them impossible or near impossible to break into submission-so Sauron and Morgoth would likely have failed at attempting that-instead they would have promised them things the dwarves' hearts longer after.

Or used the fact that some dwarves were suspicious if not hostile to the elves to direct them to their side.