Sex Amongst the Maiar (and the Other Beings in Arda)

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

Before Sauron became The Eye

I just noticed this. Is it a metaphorical statement? Surely it is well-established that Sauron was never just a big floating eyeball. Nonetheless I can't think that Sauron, whose first fixation was Order and later simply hatred for those who appeared to obstruct his vision of Order, would have had much interest in anything sexual even at his most incarnate level of spiritual degradation. Sauron seems to me to have been an obsessive person, who in the Third Age at least had two overriding goals: the conquest of the West of Middle-earth and the recovery of the Rings of Power (and especially, of course, the One Ring). He does not strike me as the kind of person who put those fixations aside for the sake of his leisure.

I am still convinced that the Ainur were largely asexual unless confined to a single incarnation, and that their marriages were based on a "purer" form of "gender-attraction" rather than the sexual attraction that Incarnates had to put up with. Again, it seems to me that Professor Tolkien considered sexuality to be in many cases a wearisome obstacle in the relations between men and women in this world ("The dislocation of sex-instinct is one of the chief symptoms of the Fall." (Letters p.48)) and that an emotionally intimate relationship between the two without sexuality would be an admirable thing. Hence in the secondary world Ainur couples would be "better" than Incarnate couples because they wouldn't have sexuality mediating the affection and compatibility of partners.

Likewise I am almost entirely sure that Professor Tolkien made a remark somewhere to the effect that marriages among the Ainur were non-sexual in nature (more explicitly than in the quote I've already provided in my previous post, that is) but I still cannot find it...

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

... He does not strike me as the kind of person who put those fixations aside for the sake of his leisure.

I am still convinced that the Ainur were largely asexual unless confined to a single incarnation, and that their marriages were based on a "purer" form of "gender-attraction" rather than the sexual attraction that Incarnates had to put up with...

I don't think Sauron or the Maia in general would consider sex as leisure. The reason being that, as you say, they already have a much greater level of intimacy which would make sex seem trivial.

Also, while I agree that sexual attraction among incarnate beings is something they/we have to "put up with" (ie. a drive with a power that can distract from 'higher' aspirations and duties) it is not a bad thing in itself. Rather its distractive power lies in its being a means by which Incarnates can experience, be it only fleetingly, that union of being which the Maiar/Valar live in. Theirs (including Morgoth and Sauron) is the Great Song that wove the world together:

"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?"


Of course there is still the notion that the Dark Lord might have abused sex as a means of asserting his will to power, but again I don't think it half as horrific as the threat of the Witch King:

"He [Sauron] will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
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[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Of course there is still the notion that the Dark Lord might have abused sex as a means of asserting his will to power, but again I don't think it half as horrific as the threat of the Witch King:

"He [Sauron] will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
The Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

Since I first read that passage, I've had an image of Sauron holding Eowyn's brain in his hands, along with the words 'mental abuse'.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I am still convinced that the Ainur were largely asexual unless confined to a single incarnation, and that their marriages were based on a "purer" form of "gender-attraction" rather than the sexual attraction that Incarnates had to put up with. Again, it seems to me that Professor Tolkien considered sexuality to be in many cases a wearisome obstacle in the relations between men and women in this world ("The dislocation of sex-instinct is one of the chief symptoms of the Fall." (Letters p.48)) and that an emotionally intimate relationship between the two without sexuality would be an admirable thing. Hence in the secondary world Ainur couples would be "better" than Incarnate couples because they wouldn't have sexuality mediating the affection and compatibility of partners.

Likewise I am almost entirely sure that Professor Tolkien made a remark somewhere to the effect that marriages among the Ainur were non-sexual in nature (more explicitly than in the quote I've already provided in my previous post, that is) but I still cannot find it...

I think the crucial word in the first quotation is dislocation, literally meaning out of place. I have a feeling Tolkien said in one of his letters that "it was a pity it was ever a sin". In the HoME essay "The laws and customs of the Eldar" he makes it very clear that Elves enjoy sex but it is pretty much a phase in their lives and once they have got it out of their system and had all the children they wanted they devote their creative instincts to other things. Also seems from the same essay that conception is an act of will. Since the sexual act is an essential part of contracting an Elvish marriage and there is often a lengthy spell between marriage and the birth of children it would also seem that Elves had sex for pleasure / pair bonding reasons rather than merely to reproduce. However their relationships were faithful and exclusive so this may indeed represent an ideal of being able to have close relationships with others without affecting the integrity of the marital relationship. Something which is indeed hard for mortals to do.

Of course immortals don't have the biological imperative that affects mortals who live on in their children so they will be less driven by their hormones. Elvish spirits are much more in control of their bodies and as they age the spirit takes precedence IIRC.

And what is true for elves is likely to be true to a even greater degree for the Valar so I agree that the Ainur are not likely to be affected by desires of the flesh and that the lust of Sauron is more likely to be about the desire to overpower, possess and exert control rather than about sex per se.

[Aganzir]

My take on this is that if there's no sex, why call it marriage? There are other quite sufficient words - why not call it friendship instead?

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

One would assume that Tom and Goldberry--not that I'm calling them Maiar--had a fulfilling marriage. Yet we don't see any little Toms or Berrys.

Well, as Mith pointed out later, conception seems to be an act of will. However, they've probably lived in the Old Forest long enough for every potential little Tom and Berry to leave the nest - they do have the spare bedroom, and it's not like they could really expect to entertain visitors that often.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I wonder now if it's possible to have a hermaphrodite or androgynous ainu. (Seems from Agan's thread about Sauron's hair colour that the question of homosexuality is already decided on by Tumblr. :-D)

I am afraid Tolkien implied quite clearly in Laws and Customs that at least the Eldar experienced solely opposite sex attraction:

Nonetheless marriage concerns also the fëar. For the fëar of the Elves are of their nature male and female, and not their hrondor only. And the beginning of marriage is in the affinity of the fëar, and in the love arising therefrom. And this love includes in it, from its first awakening, the desire for marriage, and is therefore like to but not in all ways the same as other motions of love and friendship, even those between Elves of male and female nature who do not have this inclination.

However, I must point out that it says nothing about the Elves who are not of the Three Kindreds, or about any other races either.

I think the Ainur's incarnations are too closely knitted with their fëar to allow sex changes, but I wouldn't rule it out that Arda Marred would occasionally see fëar born in the wrong body.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Of course, the issue then is of the nature of the fëa of the child. It depends how new fëar are created (which would make an interesting discussion in its own right), and whether they come from Eru or are a product of their parents in some way as well.

Tolkien talks about fëa acquisition in Laws and Customs:

Now the Eldar hold that to each elf-child a new fëa is given, not akin to the fëar of the parents (save in belonging to the same order and nature); and this fëa either did not exist before birth, or is the fëa of one that is re-born. The new fëa, and therefore in the beginning all fëar, they believe to come direct from Eru and from beyond Eä.

There was also an idea about the parents' fëar affecting and nourishing the child's fëa (just like their hrondor, bodies, did). Also as cited in The Lost Road, according to Manwë's judgement, Dior was mortal irrespective of the choice of Lúthien. This implies that the children of mixed race unions had the fëar of the 'lesser' parent, and Maia/elf, Maia/eagle, Maia/orc children, such as they were, would effectively have been something else than Maiar.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I never thought of them as sexual, but now, after thinking about how they had to actually live in the bodies of Men, I would assume that they were also fully functional in that department.

In the bodies of old Men. That kind of ruins your assumption.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

As for other incarnates, I think it's more vague. What about about Balrogs? Would they have sexual organs? And if so, why? Or would Morgoth have denied them those to stop them getting 'distracted'?

I don't think Melkor could have denied them the form they chose. Rather, they took it according to a combination of what felt good to them and how they believed they could best serve him. Also, as has been quoted, they had different tempers from the beginning, and if they had sexual desires, it would've shown in their incarnation and Melkor couldn't have done anything to keep them from being distracted anyway.
Speaking of the fire Maiar, Arien didn't show a particular interest in romance either, so it may have been some spirit of fire thing.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

In earlier writings Tolkien conceived of the Valar as having children, notably Fionwe (later Eonwe) and Kosomot (>Gothmog) "son of Melko"; but he changed his mind and converted the Children of the Valar into the Maiar.

There were children and children. In the Later Annals of Beleriand Oromë is said to be born of Yavanna but he is not Aulë's son, but it was later altered:

and Oromë was the offspring of Yavanna, who is after named, but not as the Children of the Gods are born in this world, for he came of her thought ere the world was made.

So while this idea may have been abandoned later, it illustrates two concepts: that of the Valar getting children the ordinary, physical way; and the one that focuses on the Valar as spiritual beings.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

the marriages of the Valar (and Maiar) were not completely comparable to those of the Children of Ilúvatar, which is to say that they were based more on compatibility in the thought of Eru than bearing some physical element of attraction.

I don't necessarily agree. Tilion loved (or desired) Arien, but his feelings were clearly unrequited. It couldn't therefore have been a question of compatibility.

Also, there were some couples that were married from either the creation of the Ainur or the beginning of Arda, depending on what you consider canon, such as Manwë and Varda, but there were also those who only got married later, like Tulkas and Nessa. Personally I find it more probable that there was a period of flirting/courting and 'you+me=swoon' before the wedding rather than a sudden discovery that they were just, you know, really compatible in Ilúvatar's thought.

Originally Posted by Ardent

I don't think Sauron or the Maia in general would consider sex as leisure. The reason being that, as you say, they already have a much greater level of intimacy which would make sex seem trivial.

This is true, but it doesn't have to exclude sex altogether. You ask what reason they had to have sex when there were other levels of intimacy, but then again, what reason did they have not to? They enjoyed song and dance too, and even though (as Galin pointed out) these were not binding while conceiving and begetting were, they were still pleasures. Enlighten a non-native English speaker here, but do conceiving and begetting mean the act of making love as well as that of actually making babies (and the many other things Lal said).

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think the crucial word in the first quotation is dislocation, literally meaning out of place. I have a feeling Tolkien said in one of his letters that "it was a pity it was ever a sin". In the HoME essay "The laws and customs of the Eldar" he makes it very clear that Elves enjoy sex but it is pretty much a phase in their lives and once they have got it out of their system and had all the children they wanted they devote their creative instincts to other things. Also seems from the same essay that conception is an act of will. Since the sexual act is an essential part of contracting an Elvish marriage and there is often a lengthy spell between marriage and the birth of children it would also seem that Elves had sex for pleasure / pair bonding reasons rather than merely to reproduce.

Good points.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Enlighten a non-native English speaker here, but do conceiving and begetting mean the act of making love as well as that of actually making babies (and the many other things Lal said).

The use can be a bit idiosyncratic, but the proper definitions of the words explicitly mean "baby making" and not just making love.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

...it doesn't have to exclude sex altogether. You ask what reason they had to have sex when there were other levels of intimacy, but then again, what reason did they have not to?

... Enlighten a non-native English speaker here, but do conceiving and begetting mean the act of making love as well as that of actually making babies (and the many other things Lal said)...

I did not intend to imply that the Maiar or Eldar did not enjoy sex, only that their memory of a higher state of being, a state of "at one-ness", would have made it more difficult for sex to become a ruling passion.

As for conceiving and begetting, both are terms which we use to avoid the idea of sex. They are 'detached' terms, the chief difference between them is that "conceive" is associated more with female nature and "begat" with the male. That said, only a woman can conceive a baby, but anyone can conceive an idea, as Eru conceived the world, while begat is something you wear on a big 'ed.

.

[Morthoron]

Perhaps they just preferred Ainul sex.

Sorry, I just can't be serious with this topic.

[Belegorn]

I think the Powers had sex. Melian certainly did with Thingol, Ungoliant did with lesser creatures. I figure if they can enjoy the fruits of the earth and ingest them then they can enjoy other fruits of the earth.

"so also did they EAT and DRINK, and GATHER THE FRUITS of Yavannah from the Earth" [Sil, p. 82]

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

In the HoME essay "The laws and customs of the Eldar" he makes it very clear that Elves enjoy sex but it is pretty much a phase in their lives and once they have got it out of their system and had all the children they wanted they devote their creative instincts to other things. Also seems from the same essay that conception is an act of will.
Since the sexual act is an essential part of contracting an Elvish marriage and there is often a lengthy spell between marriage and the birth of children it would also seem that Elves had sex for pleasure / pair bonding reasons rather than merely to reproduce.

I've added the bolding here to Mithalwen's post,because it is the part I wish to discuss in particular.

If conception amongst the elves is an act of will, that is, if elves procreative only when they choose to procreate, does that not mean that Eru isn't part of the procreation? It would appear to be another version of the free will question.

That would appear to differ from at least some Christian ideology which claims that all pregnancies derive from God. Not that Tolkien's legendarium can't differ. Just an observation.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

In the bodies of old Men. That kind of ruins your assumption.

Agan, just how many old men have you known? Oh, wait a minute. That sounds too much like knowing in the biblical sense and too personal. Forget it.

Let me put it this way instead.

Is it in fact a valid assumption that old people no longer enjoy sexual relations?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Is it in fact a valid assumption that old people no longer enjoy sexual relations?

We mustn't forget the late Lord Frey.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Agan, just how many old men have you known? Oh, wait a minute. That sounds too much like knowing in the biblical sense and too personal. Forget it.

Let me put it this way instead.

Is it in fact a valid assumption that old people no longer enjoy sexual relations?

My dearest B-B, it was never my intention to imply that. I was speaking about old as in 'thousands of years old', which, you have to admit, might make some difference, even if not in the upper department.

(And yes, your original phrasing made me take a second look, but since I'm not an Ainu, this is not the time nor place. Suffice to say, I find it unlikely I'll ever know any man as old as Gandalf. )

As for procreation of free will, there's this part in Laws and Customs which is quite interesting:

There were seldom more than four children in any house, and the number grew less as ages passed; but even in days of old, while the Eldar were still few, and eager to increase their kind, (included in first version: before the weight of years lay on them), Fëanor was renowned as the father of seven sons, and the histories record none that surpassed him.

I see two possible explanations here:

1. Only First Age Elves were eager to increase their kind
2. Ilúvatar was eager to avoid overpopulation later

The text basically says that either the former is true, or the Eldar spent a considerable amount of their time in the bedroom in the First Age.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

We mustn't forget the late Lord Frey.

And you remember why he was called so? Because he came late.
Sorry.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Is it in fact a valid assumption that old people no longer enjoy sexual relations?

You asked a good question, Bêthberry; but the problem is that in the case of the Ringwraiths you can't compare like with like. They ceased to be Men centuries ago, thanks to the Nine which prolonged their lives and turned them into wraiths, although they may still look that way.

In the same way Smeagol, due to the influence of the One Ring, from being a hobbit came to be something else, his life prolonged far beyond what was normal for his race. I liked the fact that Tolkien never called Gollum a hobbit, only saying once that he might look like a very ancient hobbit.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

I did not have the time earlier to read everyone's responses to this thread, but I am glad that it sparked a good (and mostly serious ) discussion. I don't have much to add, but I enjoyed reading quotes from the Tolkien books that I haven't read (I don't have a complete HoME).

One thing to add here:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Is it in fact a valid assumption that old people no longer enjoy sexual relations?

There were cases of American Civil War veterans taking wives as recently as the 1930's, and the man who owns the company that my father works at is probably ninety years old and has an eight-year-old son. That being said, I don't think that the Istari would have come to Middle-earth with sexual desires. Such desires could become a distraction from their mission, and I don't think that the Valar nor the wizards would have set out without thought for that.

After reading this thread, my current opinion is that the "higher" beings in Middle-earth had the power to either desire or not desire intimacy with each other. I still can't see Sauron having any inclination to perform the act of sex. My feelings on the physical bodies of these beings (when they are in a humaniod state, anyway) are thus: they had bodies that worked much the same as ours. Going back to eating and drinking, we know that the Valar, for instance, ate and drank, so therefore they must have needed a digestive tract and some way to dispose of their waste, so why not also have reproductive organs?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

That being said, I don't think that the Istari would have come to Middle-earth with sexual desires. Such desires could become a distraction from their mission, and I don't think that the Valar nor the wizards would have set out without thought for that.

No, that is exactly the point! The Wizards, and it is stated explicitly, were incarnate for a reason. They were exposed to all possible problems (and delights) mortal inhabitants of M-E could face. To put it in a more straightforward manner, it is not unimaginable for me to have a Wizard decide (Melianesque, if you find that easier to imagine with such comparison) "hey, I found a wonderful mortal woman and we fell in love and I want to spend my life with her in a cottage hidden in the mountains, screw the war with Sauron". It would not be any different from, for instance, Radagast deciding that he'd rather spend his days tramping in the wilderness.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

No, that is exactly the point! The Wizards, and it is stated explicitly, were incarnate for a reason. They were exposed to all possible problems (and delights) mortal inhabitants of M-E could face. To put it in a more straightforward manner, it is not unimaginable for me to have a Wizard decide (Melianesque, if you find that easier to imagine with such comparison) "hey, I found a wonderful mortal woman and we fell in love and I want to spend my life with her in a cottage hidden in the mountains, screw the war with Sauron". It would not be any different from, for instance, Radagast deciding that he'd rather spend his days tramping in the wilderness.

Ah, I see your point. It is interesting though, that Radagast fell in love with animals and the wilderness, and not some woman.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

Ah, I see your point. It is interesting though, that Radagast fell in love with animals and the wilderness, and not some woman.

I guess that would come back to what you were talking about with Bethberry, and with which I agree, as in, by no means would I want to diminish any sexual desires among older people, but generally it probably isn't as common or as strong, and with this I would say that the Wizards were indeed not of "that cathegory" and so their distractions would come from different hobbies, interests, and so on. Especially if you take into account that they were in the position of having an entirely new world to explore, literally.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

Ah, I see your point. It is interesting though, that Radagast fell in love with animals and the wilderness, and not some woman.

Perhaps the goat sounded like Stevie Nicks.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

There were cases of American Civil War veterans taking wives as recently as the 1930's, and the man who owns the company that my father works at is probably ninety years old and has an eight-year-old son. That being said, I don't think that the Istari would have come to Middle-earth with sexual desires. Such desires could become a distraction from their mission, and I don't think that the Valar nor the wizards would have set out without thought for that.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I guess that would come back to what you were talking about with Bethberry, and with which I agree, as in, by no means would I want to diminish any sexual desires among older people, but generally it probably isn't as common or as strong, and with this I would say that the Wizards were indeed not of "that cathegory" and so their distractions would come from different hobbies, interests, and so on. Especially if you take into account that they were in the position of having an entirely new world to explore, literally.

I think it is probably not too remiss to point out that in the human species there are differences in the development of sexual appetites of the sexes, with women peaking much later than men. In medieval literature (Chaucer comes to mind) the elderly who still pursue sexual appetite are ridiculed, but that is a cultural value rather than normative behaviour.

[must go find something I want to reply to Aganzir now, so will edit this later.]

[denethorthefirst]

I think that there are two forms of incarnation:

A "biological" incarnation, where the ainu actually forms a body that has a complete organ system. This is the form of Incarnation that the Istari, Melian and also the Umaia in orcform (Boldogs) went through. These Ainur actually became human, elvish (or orcish) in form (and dependent on nourishment and sleep), but can now also reproduce with other true incarnates (i dont think that two incarnated ainu could reproduce).
I guess that this form of Incarnation is much more limiting for the innate Power of the Ainu and that Ainur that incarnated in such a way could be much more easily killed than an Ainu that incarnated himself in the other way. It also seems that they did not to do it entirely out of free will: the Istari had to because it was a requirement for their mission, Melian did it out of Love for Thingol and to conceive, and the Boldogs probably because they lacked the Power for mightier Forms or where maybe forced by Melkor in order to procreate with Orcs.

A "unique" (for lack of a better word) incarnation where the ainu creates a wholly new and original form for his spirit that acts more like a "biological machine" than an actual body. It could either lack an organ system, or have an organ system that is much more complex than that of the incarnates or animals. I think the bodies of the Balrogs and the incarnated Sauron where of this kind. If the bodies of the Balrogs were completely "biological" (like for example a human body) they would have burnt to death a long time ago. Ainur like that are probably also much harder to kill, because you cant just stab them in the heart (there might be no heart, or there are three hearts! everything is possible), the opponents actually had to destroy or somehow "break" the "form". They are also less (if at all) dependent on nourishment and sleep. I guess that Ainur that incarnated in such a way were also physically a lot stronger and could better project their innate Power because they (rather voluntary) chose and created a form that completely suited them, but they probably couldn't conceive or impregnate other incarnates because they would not have been "compatible".

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

A "biological" incarnation, where the ainu actually forms a body that has a complete organ system. This is the form of Incarnation that the Istari, Melian and also the Umaia in orcform (Boldogs) went through. These Ainur actually became human, elvish (or orcish) in form (and dependent on nourishment and sleep), but can now also reproduce with other true incarnates (i dont think that two incarnated ainu could reproduce).

I don't know about the ultimate legitimacy of Boldog, since that's HOME stuff, but the incarnations of Melian and the Istari are certainly more bound to the physical world than their Maia brethren.

The Istari, as you say, were housed in actual bodies, which they could not forsake without "dying", as a consequence of the nature of their mission in Middle-earth.
In their case, reproducing with any of the Children of Ilúvatar was not only contrary to their mission, but could also have had serious consequences.

Melian's embodiment was indeed voluntary, and I see it as a parallel with Arwen's later situation with Aragorn.
In order for the immortal Melian to be betrothed to a "lesser" being in Middle-earth, she had to bring herself to Thingol's level, so to speak. She took on basically thelife of the Eldar, though I think it rather unfair that after Thingol's death she was allowed to simply head back to Aman and "dwell on her sorrows".

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

I think the bodies of the Balrogs and the incarnated Sauron where of this kind. If the body of the Balrogs were completely "biological" (like a human body) they would have burnt to death a long time ago. Ainur like that are probably also much harder to kill, because you cant just stab them in the heart (there might be no heart, or there are three hearts! everything is possible), the opponents actually had to destroy or somehow "break" the "form". They are also less (if at all) dependent on nourishment and sleep. I guess that Ainur that incarnated in such a way could also better project their innate Power because they chose and created a form that completely suited them, but they probably couldn't conceive because they would not have been "compatible".

I think Sauron's (and the Balrogs') embodiment was required in order to have the maximum effect on the physical world in Middle-earth. . The appearance of their forms seems to be mainly connected with the state of their inner spirit. Sauron, until the destruction of his body in the Fall of Númenor, was able to appear fair and noble. But after he returned to Middle-earth after the Fall, he only looked terrible and evil. His spiritual state had become consumed with hate and a lust for domination, which could have been reflected physically, and maybe too the Valar took steps to deny him the ability to look less threatening, and so make it harder for him to deceive Elves, Men, and Dwarves ever after.