Another one bites the dust.... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 02-21-2013, 08:46 PM

Grotta's miserable "biography" is a piece of dog-merde. Good riddance. As Tolkien's friend Dorothy Sayers said, "This is not a book to be tossed aside lightly; this is a book to be hurled away with great force."

One review:

"I picked up the original version of this biography a few months
ago, and it was the most uninformed and ignorant waste of fifty cents I ever
saw. Grotta was terribly upset that the Tolkiens didn't let him rummage
through JRRTs possessions, but I doubt it would have done any good if he had --
it was clear that he not only hadn't read the Silmarillion, even the parts
available at the time, he hadn't even read the appendices of the Lord of the
Rings."

davem · 02-22-2013, 05:16 AM

Lots of people are cashing in on the Hobbit at the moment - and on a lot of other things. That doesn't justify banning a book. Neither does the fact it contains inaccuracies. Taking recent history into account it looks like banning things is the Estate's default position when it comes to anything it doesn't like.

Mind you, I'd love to get Christopher's reaction to the description of him in Oliver Beard's comment.

Mithalwen · 02-22-2013, 05:55 AM

Presumably he is quite free to rewrite it without using infringing copyright. Rather hard to feel much sympathy for someone complaining that theyare no longer allowed to benefit from the ballantine paperback.

Elf_NFB · 02-22-2013, 07:28 AM

I read the post. It strikes me as someone with a sob story to get a buck out of you. Using quotes from a work published illegally and crying that the appropriate copyright holder won't give you the time of day is despicable. He can certainly post his work as a free epub anonymously on the internet if he is so worried about this terribly important work not being read. yes.. that was sarcasm.

davem · 02-22-2013, 08:08 AM

Great as my love Tolkien's work is, I have never had much sympathy with the copyright thing - given the sheer degree of 'theft' of earlier writers' work he indulged in. If Beowulf, the Mabinogion, the Kalevala, the Eddas, the Arthurian legends and most works of myth, legend and folklore he 'drew on', was 'inspired by', or that 'influenced' him had been covered by copyright, and the holders had been as eager to protect their rights as Tolkien's heirs are he quite probably wouldn't have published any middle earth stories at all.

Inziladun · 02-22-2013, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

Great as my love Tolkien's work is, I have never had much sympathy with the copyright thing - given the sheer degree of 'theft' of earlier writers' work he indulged in. If Beowulf, the Mabinogion, the Kalevala, the Eddas, the Arthurian legends and most works of myth, legend and folklore he 'drew on', was 'inspired by', or that 'influenced' him had been covered by copyright, and the holders had been as eager to protect their rights as Tolkien's heirs are he quite probably wouldn't have published any middle earth stories at all.

Tolkien's work being influenced by earlier writers doesn't seem quite the same as someone expressly writing (or re-writing) a book about a popular author in order to cash in on that author's resurgent popularity.

davem · 02-22-2013, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun;6815'in76

Tolkien's work being influenced by earlier writers doesn't seem quite the same as someone expressly writing (or re-writing) a book about a popular author in order to cash in on that author's resurgent popularity.

I think with Tolkien 'influence' always has to be in quotes. He basically lifted images, characters and whple scenes -.often without even bothering to change the names (cf the dwarf names in TH). If another author tried that kind of thing with Tolkien's writings the Estate would have a legal lynch mob out. I don't have a problem with that kind of 'borrowing' personally, I just find it hypocritical of the Estate given that far, far more than most authors Tolkien drew on the works of other minds.

Recall that the Estate threatened legal action against a Canadian children's summer camp for their use of the words Elf, Dwarf and Hobbit - none of which Tolkien actually invented.

As far as this case goes, the Grotta bio was in print for years, and had done zero harm to Tolkien or
his work. This seems a bit of sour grapes, given CT's original failure top prevent it going ahead. It's not even as if Grotta intended to charge for it.

Mithalwen · 02-22-2013, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

Great as my love Tolkien's work is, I have never had much sympathy with the copyright thing - given the sheer degree of 'theft' of earlier writers' work he indulged in. If Beowulf, the Mabinogion, the Kalevala, the Eddas, the Arthurian legends and most works of myth, legend and folklore he 'drew on', was 'inspired by', or that 'influenced' him had been covered by copyright, and the holders had been as eager to protect their rights as Tolkien's heirs are he quite probably wouldn't have published any middle earth stories at all.

Surely all of those would have been long out of copyright in Tolkien's lifetime. And he was hardly capitalising on the vast popular success of those works.

Bet that was the instant reaction at Unwins... based on the Kalevala? Kerching!!!!!

William Cloud Hicklin · 02-22-2013, 10:30 AM

Taking recent history into account it looks like banning things is the Estate's default position when it comes to anything it doesn't like.

Care to expound on that "recent history?"

02-21-2013, 08:46 PM	#1
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Grotta's miserable "biography" is a piece of dog-merde. Good riddance. As Tolkien's friend Dorothy Sayers said, "This is not a book to be tossed aside lightly; this is a book to be hurled away with great force." One review: "I picked up the original version of this biography a few months ago, and it was the most uninformed and ignorant waste of fifty cents I ever saw. Grotta was terribly upset that the Tolkiens didn't let him rummage through JRRTs possessions, but I doubt it would have done any good if he had -- it was clear that he not only hadn't read the Silmarillion, even the parts available at the time, he hadn't even read the appendices of the Lord of the Rings." __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

02-22-2013, 05:16 AM	#2
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Lots of people are cashing in on the Hobbit at the moment - and on a lot of other things. That doesn't justify banning a book. Neither does the fact it contains inaccuracies. Taking recent history into account it looks like banning things is the Estate's default position when it comes to anything it doesn't like. Mind you, I'd love to get Christopher's reaction to the description of him in Oliver Beard's comment. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

02-22-2013, 05:55 AM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	Presumably he is quite free to rewrite it without using infringing copyright. Rather hard to feel much sympathy for someone complaining that theyare no longer allowed to benefit from the ballantine paperback. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

02-22-2013, 08:08 AM	#5
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Great as my love Tolkien's work is, I have never had much sympathy with the copyright thing - given the sheer degree of 'theft' of earlier writers' work he indulged in. If Beowulf, the Mabinogion, the Kalevala, the Eddas, the Arthurian legends and most works of myth, legend and folklore he 'drew on', was 'inspired by', or that 'influenced' him had been covered by copyright, and the holders had been as eager to protect their rights as Tolkien's heirs are he quite probably wouldn't have published any middle earth stories at all. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

02-22-2013, 10:30 AM	#9
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Taking recent history into account it looks like banning things is the Estate's default position when it comes to anything it doesn't like. Care to expound on that "recent history?" __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

02-22-2013, 07:28 AM	#4
Elf_NFB Newly Deceased Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 8	I read the post. It strikes me as someone with a sob story to get a buck out of you. Using quotes from a work published illegally and crying that the appropriate copyright holder won't give you the time of day is despicable. He can certainly post his work as a free epub anonymously on the internet if he is so worried about this terribly important work not being read. yes.. that was sarcasm.