The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

[Galin]

Hmm, because we want to?

And Tolkien, when he was aware of an error in already published text, sometimes tried to work with it in some internal way. Not always, but sometimes he would, in my opinon to help with the inner consistency of the subcreated world.

In this case we all seem to agree that Tolkien just forgot this line, so why not try to make it work (I say).

No Tolkien wasn't perfect, but at times he played this 'game' himself, no?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmm, because we want to?

And Tolkien, when he was aware of an error in already published text, sometimes tried to work with it in some internal way. Not always, but sometimes he would, in my opinon to help with the inner consistency of the subcreated world.

In this case we all seem to agree that Tolkien just forgot this line, so why not try to make it work (I say).

No Tolkien wasn't perfect, but at times he played this 'game' himself, no?

Well, Tolkien the inveterate Patience-player would often play the 'game'- most especially since as a philologist and medievalist he was as aware as any man how things in the real world grow organically and not according to regular, artificial 'patterns;' it's interesting in this light not only his love of trees in all their individuality, but how often in his writing even those RW epitomes of Vitruvian regularity, pillars and columns, are carved in the shapes of trees.

So if there was a bump which he perceived as being an organic 'bud' he would often leave it unpruned and see how it grew- but one can hardly say that of things like Eomer's "three nights ago;" either he got word of the Orc-raid three nights or four nights prior, it can't have been both.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

(...) So if there was a bump which he perceived as being an organic 'bud' he would often leave it unpruned and see how it grew- but one can hardly say that of things like Eomer's "three nights ago;" either he got word of the Orc-raid three nights or four nights prior, it can't have been both.

I agree, some things we must simply accept as errors... Frodo's errors

And something like Finrod being Galadriel's father (first edition)... then Finarfin being her father, would be another type of inconsistency that might call for a finger pointing at Tolkien or at least some internal scribe perhaps. But this statement from Galadriel has a measure of wiggle room in it I think. Even within the context of its original conception, one would think Galadriel really means two ranges of mountains, although I suppose she could have gone round the Misty Mountains.

And even though I use 'game' I think Tolkien thought this important enough. Christopher Tolkien notes his father's concern for consistency in the author-published texts, although Tolkien also chose to undermine himself in places (in my opinion, the Finrod case for example), and so he was hardly consistent even with respect to text already in print.

And we know that Tolkien intended some variation within his legendarium, which arguably helped make his creation seem more real, not less, but obviously no one wants the unintended kind.

[Galin]

In Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien writes:

"It is a natural assumption that Celeborn and Galadriel were present at the ruin of Doriath (it is said in one place that Celeborn "escaped the sack of Doriath"), and perhaps aided the escape of Elwing to the Havens of Sirion with the Silmaril -- but this is nowhere stated."

CJRT, commentary on Celeborn, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

Can anyone referesh my memory of where this is said, that is, to what text does "in one place" refer, or, if the source has not been published, anyone know if it's "late" at least, say 1968 or later?

Is it somewhere obvious?

I've also revised my idea about the first version of the Elessar tale. I now think Tolkien meant that Olorin (not "Gandalf" the Istar as he would later become) visited Galadriel with the stone, before she could employ Nenya, or in other words, before the Last Alliance and the taking of the One from Sauron.

That at least would explain why Galadriel would consider wielding it.

[gondowe]

Why?

Because I want to do it and I know some people also want to do. But of course, it`s a personal game, for personal reading.

In the mare-magnum of versions of this history I think is fascinating to try to put order in them.

Tolkien while brilliant was not infallible; the LR is littered with uncorrected lines he overlooked during revision- that's what a 'ghost' is, as in the 'ghost' of an earlier draft. Just for two examples, Aragorn's "sleep without fear" statement in Caras Galadon, and Pippin seeing the moon rising rather than setting on the night of the war-beacons.

These and those in the post above are other kind of ghost sentences, that one could be minimised thanks to the legendarium "incomplete", and according with my/our principles exposed above in this post.

Greetings