Zaentz countersues the Estate

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

And again- as for the general contention that film/TV fandom comes first- well, there is a reason Hollywood does so darned much of this book-to-film stuff, Morsul. As I said, a book without a significant existing audience and/or reputation rarely makes it to the screen in the first place.

Are we playing WW right now? My head hurts the same way....

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm explaining the defense Zainst is putting together. I again never said they were correct in their assertions.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Are we playing WW right now? My head hurts the same way....

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm explaining the defense Zainst is putting together. I again never said they were correct in their assertions.

Well, hey, I never said you did either. But you were saying it was a case that would be hard to beat- so I'm explaining why I don't think that's so. OK?

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, hey, I never said you did either. But you were saying it was a case that would be hard to beat- so I'm explaining why I don't think that's so. OK?

Ah I see where the disagreement is now. I apologize.

The reason I think it'll be hard to beat isn't because its a good defense or even remotely true, however we live in a time where books tend to be pushed aside for cinema and television I sadly think it isn't a far stretch to convince 12 couch potatoes to side with the film company.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Hard to beat?

Since Zaentz has now put "the fame and good will developed in these marks, products, goods, and services" in factual contention, it hangs a curveball out over the plate for the TE's lawyers to bring on a whole parade of tacky, vulgar, tasteless crap ZaentzCo has willingly licensed over the years (and contrast it with the licensing proposals Christopher has rejected for being tacky, vulgar and tasteless.)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Hard to beat?

Since Zaentz has now put "the fame and good will developed in these marks, products, goods, and services" in factual contention, it hangs a curveball out over the plate for the TE's lawyers to bring on a whole parade of tacky, vulgar, tasteless crap ZaentzCo has willingly licensed over the years (and contrast it with the licensing proposals Christopher has rejected for being tacky, vulgar and tasteless.)

*fingers his Lurtz figurine*

Why, William, whatever are you talking about?

*takes a sip from his Burger King Gandalf glass*

Are you implying that Zaentz-approved merchandise is tacky?

*pulls at the snug neck of his Gollum t-shirt, newly removed from packaging*

Well, I'd like to debate this more fully, but I have very little time...

*looks irritably at his Map-of-Middle-earth wrist watch*

...you see, I am just finishing up lunch...

*picks the last of his sandwich off his Legolas-embossed dinner plate*

...and I must return to work.

*pulls his Lord of the Rings key chain out of his pocket*

I will continue this discussion...

*Glares at his "The Two Towers: Extended Edition" calendar*

...Thursday next.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I will continue this discussion...

*Glares at his "The Two Towers: Extended Edition" calendar*

...Thursday next.

Funny, I could almost swear that should be "Thursday Next", since we do seem to have a parallel universe where certain Tolkien goods are dodgy.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morsul

What I'm saying is it comes down to the jury. If they get a very book friendly crowd the estate will do better if they get a bunch of tv watchers who only read texcts then Zainst has the advantage.

Two points, Morsul. Firstly, as Beth points out, these kind of things mostly don't get that far. Secondly, well, you seem to have a very odd idea of how a trial by jury works, anyway. I mean, you seem to think that what happens in court is basically irrelevant, and all that matters is what side the jurors "liked" best at the outset.

(And even on those terms, it's not as if Zaentz actually made the films...)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Ah I see where the disagreement is now. I apologize.

The reason I think it'll be hard to beat isn't because its a good defense or even remotely true, however we live in a time where books tend to be pushed aside for cinema and television I sadly think it isn't a far stretch to convince 12 couch potatoes to side with the film company.

But... Morsul, they're not just going to poll a bunch of people on what they like best, books or films, then award the thing accordingly. I'm sorry if that comes across as sarcastic, but, well I don't know what to say– honestly, it is really is sounding like that's how you think it works.

Originally Posted by Beth

Yet they do form literary societies to perpetuate the popularity of books. And many of the societies do have online shops and events where members may buy paraphernalia associated with their author and even engage in a bit of masquerade.

Plus , there's plenty of what I would frankly term junk fiction that has a huge readership. Regrettably so, perhaps– but I think it can be pretty easily proven that many, many millions of people do read books. Often pretty bad books, in my opinion, but that's not the point.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But... Morsul, they're not just going to poll a bunch of people on what they like best, books or films, then award the thing accordingly. I'm sorry if that comes across as sarcastic, but, well I don't know what to say– honestly, it is really is sounding like that's how you think it works.


Plus , there's plenty of what I would frankly term junk fiction that has a huge readership. Regrettably so, perhaps– but I think it can be pretty easily proven that many, many millions of people do read books. Often pretty bad books, in my opinion, but that's not the point.

What I'm saying is it comes down to the jury. If they get a very book friendly crowd the estate will do better if they get a bunch of tv watchers who only read texcts then Zainst has the advantage. Juries are people and people are usually swayed by their preferences. Juries are sort of like polling people, especially in a case of pretty subjective stuff. Are the movies famous because of the books or vice versa of course at the start the movies were made because of the books but after it's a bit more grey....

[Bêthberry]

Do cases like this ever reach the jury stage? Aren't they most often negotiated before trial begins?

That's certainly what happened when the Estate sued an author in the US for using Tolkien as an historical character in his novel. It's jockeying for position rather than raising a legitimate trial.