The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galin

Again, Tolkien is creative enough to supply reasons for why Galadriel plants the trees East of the Misty Mountains on her visits to Lothlorien, but on the other hand I wonder if the original scenario wasn't easier?

Or perhaps she was waiting until she could act through her agent, Samwise?

[cellurdur]

Regarding the question about why would Galadriel let Sauron enter Eregion if she was the ruler, I guess it depends on what version of Galadriel we accept.

I have always found it quite telling that in the Lord of the Rings, Elrond wishes that even the 3 had never been made, but Galadriel only wishes that the One Ring had not been made or at least never been found.

Sauron found their weak point in suggesting that, helping one another, they could make Western Middle-earth as beautiful as Valinor. It was really a veiled attack on the gods, an incitement to try and make a separate independent paradise. Gilgalad repulsed all such overtures, as also did Elrond. But at Eregion great work began – and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery. With the aid of Sauron's lore they made Rings of Power ('power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods).-Letter 131

This is dangerous close to what Galadriel is suggest to Celebrimbor in the Unfinished Tales, if we accept Celebrimbor as the maker.

'What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native home was Aman the Blessed. Here I am mightier.'
'What would you do then' said Celebrimbor
'I should have trees and grass about me that do not die-here in a land that is mine,' she answered.

It seems to me that Galadriel may have rejected Sauron, but she was still drawn to his offer. Her gift was in reading people's intentions. She may have seen that Sauron was hiding his malice, but none the less she desired what he had to offer.

Again she alone of the Wise wished for the One Ring to fall into her possession. Perhaps Galadriel allowed Sauron into her land to try and gain knowledge from him, but keeping him under close watch at the same time.

[Galin]

Celebrimbor as the maker of the Three is published in The Lord of the Rings, so I accept that.

But as for CG&C, the story goes that Galadriel actually scorned Annatar, and that Annatar perceived that she would be his chief adversary and obstacle, bearing her scorn with outward patience. And so Sauron works with Celebrimbor and the Mirdain: '... but he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn.'


I mean, I agree, according to The Elessar Galadriel not only desired the preservation power of the Rings, but used Nenya once Sauron fell, as did Elrond. Yet Tolkien has her being Annatar's chief obstacle in CG&C, so much so that he must work in secret with the Mirdain... perhaps this was the 'answer' to the question? that perhaps Galadriel did not allow Sauron 'in Eregion' at all?

But I think Tolkien thought better of the whole thing. He makes Celebrimbor a Feanorean and makes him Lord of Eregion, and now whatever Galadriel's reaction to Sauron in Eregion, Sauron is allowed into the fold, and the deception continues until the Mirdain become aware of his true purpose (after the One is forged and so on).

Thus, Galadriel as ruler need not be ousted by the Mirdain, passing to Lothlorien before Sauron comes with war. In CG&C she went to Lorinand due to the revolt of the Jewel Smiths, but I note (Words, Phrases, and Passages)...

'... of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)' entry Yrch

'Also it existed long before Galadriel's coming there -- it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after downfall of Eregion.' entry Lothlorien

'... simply Sindarin of Beleriand, brought in by Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria and established their realm on the east side of the...' entry Sindarin

And for the revised The Lord of the Rings, all that is noted is that the Noldor pass to Eregion (mithril and so on), and it is added that Celebrimbor is Lord of Eregion.

It seems a rather notable detail to skip that Galadriel and Celeborn were founders and rulers of Eregion! but if that version raised too many questions and had been abandoned...

[elbenprincess]

Just one little random question:

I have always found it quite telling that in the Lord of the Rings, Elrond wishes that even the 3 had never been made, but Galadriel only wishes that the One Ring had not been made or at least never been found.

Why would he wish for that? I do not argue that he wished for it, I just don´t get why, all together the rings had only positive effects, who knows if Lorien or Rivendell would have stood that long without the power of the ring and for Gandalf the ring was also very important? OK, in the end, the rings lost it´s power and the things made by them vanished, that would hurt very much, I guess, but still I think without the rings the outcome of the war could have been quite disastrous.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Just one little random question:



Why would he wish for that? I do not argue that he wished for it, I just don´t get why, all together the rings had only positive effects, who knows if Lorien or Rivendell would have stood that long without the power of the ring and for Gandalf the ring was also very important? OK, in the end, the rings lost it´s power and the things made by them vanished, that would hurt very much, I guess, but still I think without the rings the outcome of the war could have been quite disastrous.

Even though the three rings had positive effects, they were still working against nature. They were preventing time from flowing the way it should do. Tolkien even calls the creation of the rings a second fall for the Elves. By making the One Rings they succeeded in making Sauron stronger. Perhaps if Sauron did not have the One Ring then Numenor would have dealt with him themselves and not been destroyed.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Why would he wish for that? I do not argue that he wished for it, I just don´t get why

Elrond's statement comes in the Council of Elrond. Immediately before saying this, he sort of outlines his rationale:

• The elves made the rings because they desired to "preserve all things unstained." (to act as a preservative <g>)
• Elves, to some extent, gained this desire, though with sorrow.
• BUT - - - *if* Sauron recovers the One, things get far worse ... Their minds and hearts will be revealed to Sauron.

Recall that Sauron made The One to control the free peoples of Middle Earth. The Elves avoided that by taking off their rings and not using them (while he had The One).
Now, however, they've been using the rings for over 3,000 years, preserving and building their realms.
One might wonder whay, if Sauron gets the One back, they can't just take their rings off again. I suspect (extrapolating from Elrond's sentiment) that it's not that simple. It's just a guess, but perhaps now that they've invested so much of themselves in and through their rings, that taking off their rings would no longer be enough to sheild them from Sauron's control. That Sauron would (in some fashion) get inside their heads and exert the control over them he had always desired.

Imagine your horror if you found that your most feared enemy might gain the power to see your thoughts and feelings and to even twist them within your own mind.

Had the Three never been made, they would not have to fear this possibility.

<just a possibility>

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

One might wonder whay, if Sauron gets the One back, they can't just take their rings off again. I suspect (extrapolating from Elrond's sentiment) that it's not that simple. It's just a guess, but perhaps now that they've invested so much of themselves in and through their rings, that taking off their rings would no longer be enough to sheild them from Sauron's control. That Sauron would (in some fashion) get inside their heads and exert the control over them he had always desired.

"If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, even the Three, and all that has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger than ever." (LR p.50)
So says Gandalf in "The Shadow of the Past". It seems to me that the danger wasn't so much a matter of Sauron being able to control their bearers if he recovered the One as it was that he could understand and overpower their works. It's mentioned in the Tale of Years that "Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself." (LR p.1069) I get the impression that was the greatest danger of the Three being compromised. A key element in recovering the One would seemingly have been the rapid mastery of the defences of Imladris and Lórien and an easier victory in the North. On one side I do somewhat feel that Sauron, consumed by hate as he was at the end of the Third Age, would have been more interested in destroying the Elves and their homes than controlling them. That being said, we can imagine that the bearers of the Three would have also been easier targets when otherwise they might have been formidable opponents had Sauron regained the One and been able to oppose their wills so directly.

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

OK, in the end, the rings lost it´s power and the things made by them vanished, that would hurt very much, I guess, but still I think without the rings the outcome of the war could have been quite disastrous.

I agree. I think the Three were a blessing as well as a curse. Consider Gandalf's statement in The Quest of Erebor about Sauron's return to Mordor after forsaking Dol Guldur:
"Then everything grew dark. And yet that was not his original plan; and it was in the end a mistake. Resistance still had somewhere where it could take counsel free from the Shadow. How could the Ringbearer have escaped, if there had been no Lórien or Rivendell? And those places might have fallen, I think, if Sauron had thrown all his power against them first, and not spent more than half of it in the assault on Gondor." (Unfinished Tales p.427)
Obviously in this case he's referring to the whole Smaug situation and Sauron's military strategy but it seems to be that the presence of the Three is important: without these Rings maintaining safe havens the Dark Lord may have recovered the One much more easily. So while their creation was perhaps fundamentally unwise they did have certain benefits which in the end contributed to Sauron's undoing when they would have otherwise aided his cause.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Celebrimbor as the maker of the Three is published in The Lord of the Rings, so I accept that.

But as for CG&C, the story goes that Galadriel actually scorned Annatar, and that Annatar perceived that she would be his chief adversary and obstacle, bearing her scorn with outward patience. And so Sauron works with Celebrimbor and the Mirdain: '... but he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn.'

I don't think there is any doubt Galadriel did not trust or like Annatar, but it seems she was partially willing to make a deal with the devil or was tempted by what he had to offer. Perhaps thinking the Elves could gain from his knowledge without giving anything back in return.

He may have been working in secret, but even in this version he is allowed entry into Eregion. If he is being scorned by Galadriel it means he has been admitted into the land. In Lindon in virtually every account he was forbidden from entering.

I mean, I agree, according to The Elessar Galadriel not only desired the preservation power of the Rings, but used Nenya once Sauron fell, as did Elrond. Yet Tolkien has her being Annatar's chief obstacle in CG&C, so much so that he must work in secret with the Mirdain... perhaps this was the 'answer' to the question? that perhaps Galadriel did not allow Sauron 'in Eregion' at all?

I think all the elves fell a bit when it came to using the rings, except Gandalf, who did not use his ring to stop the flow of time.

As I have pointed out before if she was treating him with scorn, then it means she must have known he was in land.

I feel that Galadriel's dealings with Sauron may have had some similarities with the way Feanor dealt with Morgoth. Both distrusted and hated the Dark Lord, but bought into their lies. Galadriel definitely agreed with Sauron's offer to create a Valinor in Middle Earth.

But I think Tolkien thought better of the whole thing. He makes Celebrimbor a Feanorean and makes him Lord of Eregion, and now whatever Galadriel's reaction to Sauron in Eregion, Sauron is allowed into the fold, and the deception continues until the Mirdain become aware of his true purpose (after the One is forged and so on).

If Galadriel was not going to stay in Lindon and accept the direct Overlordship of Gil-galad would she be willing to do the same in Eregion? She often spoke of her desire to rule her own land. It seems odd that she would go the entire Second Age, without trying to rule at least one place. Though Gil-galad was by right her king, she was the greater, older and more powerful elf. If she would not stay under Gil-galad would she stay under the illegitimate rule of a Feanorian?
[QUOTE
Thus, Galadriel as ruler need not be ousted by the Mirdain, passing to Lothlorien before Sauron comes with war. In CG&C she went to Lorinand due to the revolt of the Jewel Smiths, but I note (Words, Phrases, and Passages)...
[/QUOTE]
The Noldor unlike the Sindar and even the Numenoreans are quick to get rid of leaders they disagree with. Even Finrod is ousted from his throne by Curufin and Celegorm. The Noldor ousting a wise and legitimate ruler is in keeping with their history and more notably the House of Finarfin.

I don't see any other reason why Galadriel would enter Eregion and not set up her own realm to rule.

And for the revised The Lord of the Rings, all that is noted is that the Noldor pass to Eregion (mithril and so on), and it is added that Celebrimbor is Lord of Eregion.

It seems a rather notable detail to skip that Galadriel and Celeborn were founders and rulers of Eregion! but if that version raised too many questions and had been abandoned...

Odd, but it still leaves the possibility open. Is there really a reasonable argument for Galadriel not ruling her own realm especially when this is something she had always wished? The Second Age was her chance to do this. I just cannot see Galadriel willingly entering Eregion to be under the Lordship of Celebrimbor.

I propose that Galadriel founded the realm and when Sauron came to Eregion she was immediately suspicious, but intrigued with what he had to offer. She refused to take his advise, but had yet to dismiss him outright. Celebrimbor starts working with him and history repeats itself. The House of Feanor once again try and oust the rightful heir of Finarfin.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

He may have been working in secret, but even in this version he is allowed entry into Eregion. If he is being scorned by Galadriel it means he has been admitted into the land. In Lindon in virtually every account he was forbidden from entering.

Yes but even Christopher Tolkien raises this question, noting that Tolkien himself doesn't really explain it. You might, I might, even Tolkien might, but he doesn't.

If Galadriel was not going to stay in Lindon and accept the direct Overlordship of Gil-galad would she be willing to do the same in Eregion?

As far as I recall there is no motive of fleeing Gil-galad's lordship explaining why Galadriel passed to Eregion. Celeborn arguably rules Harlindon incidentally, even if under Gil-galad as High King (and Gil-galad is still High King if they had founded Eregion in any case)...

... the motive for the Noldorin move to Eregion is mithril (Appendix B), or for Galadriel and Celeborn (CG&C), they go to the country about Nenuial first, then Galadriel moves further East, becoming aware of an evil controlling purpose in the world, seemingly proceeding further to the East. And possibly choosing Eregion also because of the Dwarves of Moria.

She often spoke of her desire to rule her own land. It seems odd that she would go the entire Second Age, without trying to rule at least one place.

Tolkien's early idea seems to be that Galadriel left Beleriand in the First Age, and (I assume) she thus ruled Lothlorien with Celeborn even before the Second Age began. Tolkien change Celeborn into a Sindarin Elf however, and (first edition) has him migrate to 'south Greenwood' in the Second Age; so again I assume that Galadriel went with him and essentially ruled in 'Lindorinand' with her husband...

... until The Road Goes Ever On is published, and the reader learns that they both went to Eregion, which also seems to take no notice of the never revised statement in The Lord of the Rings itself (Galadriel speaking): '... for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains...' and so on.

So basically Tolkien appears to make Galadriel 'wait' longer and longer until she takes up rule in Lorien, ultimately awaiting almost two thousand years into the Third Age.

Is there really a reasonable argument for Galadriel not ruling her own realm especially when this is something she had always wished? The Second Age was her chance to do this. I just cannot see Galadriel willingly entering Eregion to be under the Lordship of Celebrimbor.

Well a possible argument could be that Celebrimbor and the Smiths, attracted by Mithril -- which is the certain idea we have in publication from the author actually -- simply founded the realm before Galadriel got there, so she had no choice.


But I look at the texts here. In CG&C Galadriel is in Lothlorien before Sauron comes with war, due to being ousted from rule by the Mirdain (noting that Celebrimbor himself still comes to her for advice after this, incidentally), and is thus in Lothlorien after Eregion is devastated. Yet in the two later accounts noted in Unfinished Tales, what do we have?

Celeborn goes to Lorien after the destruction of Eregion (which itself is a change from CG&C), and later rejoins Galadriel in Lindon. Or another idea. Christopher Tolkien explains:

'The implication of the extract just given is that after Eregion's fall Celeborn led this migration to Lorien, while Galadriel joined Gil-galad in Lindon; but elsewhere, in writing contemporary with this, it is said explicitly that they both at that time 'passed through Moria with a considrable following of Noldorin exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien'

Christopher Tolkien, Unfinished Tales

It seems that Galadriel is no longer already in Lorien but passes there, unlike in CG&C where she was already in Lorien much earlier and didn't leave until after Sauron was defeated and so on -- again, with the reason for her being there being that she had been ousted from power -- and that was because she had been in power in Eregion in the first place. I note again the following from Words, Phrases And Passages:

'... of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)' entry Yrch

'Also it existed long before Galadriel's coming there -- it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after downfall of Eregion.' entry Lothlorien

'... simply Sindarin of Beleriand, brought in by Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria and established their realm on the east side of the...' entry Sindarin

Amroth as Galadriel's son changed. Celeborn's refusal to pass through Moria is gone. Gone (in my opinion) also is the agelong sojourn in Belfalas ('To Lorien Celeborn and Galadriel returned twice before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age...'), as Celeborn had never been to Lorien in CG&C, and Celeborn did not go there until far into the Third Age (CG&C). Celebrimbor as a Smith of Gondolin was changed.

What else? Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn is characterized as a 'short and hasty outline, very roughly composed', and although we can't date it exactly is could be earlier than the three quotes from WPP above, but is certainly earlier than the notes I cited that CJRT reveals in Unfinished Tales.

Galin wrote [about the added description in Appendix B]: It seems a rather notable detail to skip that Galadriel and Celeborn were founders and rulers of Eregion! but if that version raised too many questions and had been abandoned...

Cellurdur responded: Odd, but it still leaves the possibility open.

Yes but the only reason to inject Galadriel and Celeborn as founders of Eregion is because we now have access to a very rough outline which contains a number of abandoned concepts. And if this is odd, we can also add RGEO:

'She passed over the mountains of Eredluin with her husband (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion. But it was impossible for one of the High Elves to overcome the yearning for the Sea, and the longing to pass over it again to the land of their former bliss. She was now burdened with this desire. In the event, after the fall of Sauron, in reward for all that she had done to oppose him, but above all for her rejection of the Ring when it came within her power, the ban was lifted, and she returned over Sea, as it told at the end of The Lord of the Rings.'

And where it is also told (in The Lord of the Rings that is) that Celeborn did not sail with Galadriel (not at this time at least), despite what he says to Aragorn, and despite what Tolkien says here about the Sea Longing and the land of their 'former bliss' ... so not only is Celeborn Sindarin here, but if Celeborn is from Aman why isn't he returning with Galadriel, given this much about the Sea Longing?

And is Galadriel being rewarded (in part) for allowing Sauron into Eregion where the son of her nephew did not? Maybe...

... but back to Eregion, to my mind the alteration of one word could have shown Tolkien's intent (if so) here: that is, Galadriel and Celeborn 'went' to Eregion? Or 'founded' Eregion.

And since I have RGEO out:

'She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains...'

Which is why the very late, adumbrated tale of an 'unstained' Galadriel is out for me.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I have to say, in brief, that Galin's opinion (and conclusions from many citations) is pretty much where I am on the question. I think the late Unstained Supergaladriel was the aging Tolkien's foray into Mary Sue-ism.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I have to say, in brief, that Galin's opinion (and conclusions from many citations) is pretty much where I am on the question. I think the late Unstained Supergaladriel was the aging Tolkien's foray into Mary Sue-ism.

Well, isn't he as entitled as any to indulge?