The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

[Galin]

Lastly there is the question of the Elessar. For me the only version that seems to fit with the story is the first case. Where Gandalf brings the stone back from Earendil. In this version Galadriel keeps her nobility and Celebrimbor is not said to be Noldor elf from Gondolin. It foreshadows her giving it to Elrond and it shows she had the favour of the Valar.

Not that you said otherwise, but both these versions are meant to be internal in my opinion; that is, both versions were told or written in Middle-earth -- as compared to the external perspective of Tolkien working on two different versions to decide for himself which one was to be the story told within Middle-earth (rejecting the other one).

That said I find that both versions carry 'problematic' ideas, to my mind a notable one in the Gandalf scenario being that by this time Galadriel can already employ Nenya.


In the second scenario, at least with respect to the matter of Celebrimbor anyway: since it seems the case that Celebrimbor was not yet imagined as a Feanorean at this point, an easy fix in my opinion would be to go back to Enerdhil as the smith of Gondolin.

It's attested, although yes, from an external perspective the note at the end of the text revises Enerdhil to Celebrimbor, but when Celebrimbor becomes a Feanorean I think it very likely that the Smith of Gondolin was to receive a different name...

... so why not back to Enerdhil?

[cellurdur]

In the case of the Elessar you make a good point that by the time Gandalf would have arrived, Galadriel would already have been able to use Nenya. I was thinking this could be changed, by making Glorfindel the one, who gives her the stone, but even that does not work, because Galadriel did not move into the Lorien permanently until the death of Amroth.

In the case of Celebrimbor being from Gondolin, I think Tolkien had just forgotten what he had previously wrote. This story is later than the LOTR and there he has Celebrimbor as a descendant of Feanor. In this version there is still an Enerdhil, but he and Celebrimbor were friends in Gondolin.

It really is hard to make both work, I will address the issue more fully when I have am home.

[Findegil]

Yes, this is a difficult chapter. I think Cellurdur’s recollection of the earlier story put very simple. In my opinion the story of Galadriel and Celeborn was very fluent and changed bit by bit. But as Cellurdur I am always searching for the 'truth' behind the many versions. In my case I am a combiner, that means I would only skip information when it is clearly gainsaid by statement in a source of higher relevance (however one does define this relevance). Based on this for me the story of Galadriel and Celeborn runs thus:
Kinship: That first cousins are not allowed to marriage is wrong. It would only be forbidden if the parents that were not brethren and/or sister were also akin. Since it is said that Celeborn was the son of Galadon son of Elmo and the grandson of Olwe brother of Elmo, we know that the wife’s of Olwe and Elmo must have been not akin and that the wife of Galadon was the daughter of Olwe.
The mother Galadriel, Earwen, was also a daughter of Olwe. Therefore for the marriage to possible Galadriels father, Finarfin, and Celeborns father, Amdir, must be not akin at all. This is true, as far as we know.
So both marriages of first cousins in this line are possible.
If Celeborn is now to be sailing back from Valinor with Galadriel, this means that Olwe and Elmo had their children very early and that Celeborn was a good deal older then Galadriel. Since we know that Elmo and Galadon stayed in Beleriand when Olwe sailed west, Celeborn must have been born in Beleriand before the depature of the Teleri and sailed with his grandfather Olwe while his parents stayed in Beleriand.
More complex becomes the situation by the fact that we have in addition to Celeborn further children of Galadon and further names for him. For me Galadon, Malgalad and Amdír are different names for the same person. Thus also Galathil and Amroth become one and same person, while Nimloth must be a daughter of Galadon/Malgald/Amdír and a sister (not a nice) of Celeborn.

Story line:

Valian Year 1105: Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe return from Valinor and lead the Quendi leave Cuivienen.
VY 1115: Vanyar and Noldor reach Falas and the Noldor settle down in Neldoreth.
VY 1128: The Teleri come over the Ered Luin and settle in Thargelion.
VY 1130: Elwe is lost in Nan Elmoth.
VY 1132: Vanyar and Noldor leave Beleriand for Valinor. Most of the Teleri settle at the mouth of Sirion and take Olwe as king.
VY 1135: About this time Olwe's first daughter and Elmos son Galadon/Malgalad/Amdír must have been born in Beleriand.
VY 1140: About this time Amdír takes Olwe's daughter as wife.
VY 1141: About this time Galathil/Amroth is born.
VY 1146: About this time Celeborn is born.
VY 1149: Ulmo comes back to Beleriand.
VY 1150: The Teleri leave Beleriand. Olwe and his grandson Celeborn are transported on Tol Eressea. Elmo, Amdír, his wife and Amroth stay behind in search of Elwe.
VY 1151: The voyage of the Teleri is brought to a halt in sight of Valinor and they stay on Tol Eressea.
VY 1152: Elwe and Melian come out of Nan Elmoth and build Doriath. Elmo, Amdír and Amroth are with them.
VY 1161: The Teleri came at least to Valinor and settle at the coast of Eldamar.
VY 1230: Finarfin are born in Valinor.
VY 1280: Finarfin marriages Earwen daughter of Olwe.
VY 1380: about this time Galadriel is born.
VY 1492: About this time Galadriel goes to Aqualonde and meets Celeborn. Both plan to sail back to Middle-Earth.
VY 1495: First Kinslaying at Aqualonde. Galadriel and Celeborn fight against the Noldor and rescue their ship.
VY 1496: Galadriel and Celeborn leave Valinor without permission and thus come under the ban.
VY 1497: The First Battle in Beleriand. Galadriel and Celeborn reach Birthombar. Amdír leaves with Amroth and Nimloth Doriath and goes to Ossiriand.

20 First Age: Mereth Aderthad. Probably about this time Galadriel goes with her brother Finrod to Tol Sirion, while Celeborn joins his family in Ossiriand.
52 FA: Galadriel and Finrod visit Menegroth and Galadriel stays there.
102 FA: Nargothrond is build and Galadriel stays there for a time. When she returns to Doriath she meets there again Celeborn.
472 FA: Galadriel leaves Beleriand and settles down at Nenuial. Celeborn possibly goes back to Ossiriand.
497 FA: Dior marriages Nimloth.
503 FA: Thingol is slain and Doriath falls for the first time.
504 FA: Dior and Nimloth go to Doriath. Celeborn is probably with them.
507 FA: Downfall of Doriath, Dior is slain. Nimloth and her Daugther Elwing fly back to Ossiriand with the help of Celeborn.
510 FA: Fall of Gondolin. Nimloth hear about Tour’s folk heading to the mouth of Sirion and goes their herself with Elwing and a small following of survivors from Doriath. They reach the havens before Tuor.
545 FA - 587 FA: War of Wrath: Beleriand is destroyed and starts to sink. The Elves retreat to Ossirand (South-Lindon) and Thargelion (North-Lindon). Amdír, Amroth and Celeborn cross Ered-Luin and go east. Celeborn joins Galadriel at Nenuial and they become Lord and Lady of Eriador.

1 Second Age: Amdír and Amroth come to Lórien and develop there a realm of the wood-elves.
700 SA: Galadriel and Celeborn go to Eregion and build a realm of Noldor-Elves.
750 SA: Ost-in-Edhil is build.
884 - 910 SA: Tar-Aldarion makes many long voyages to Middle-Earth. He sails up Gwathló and meets with Galadriel. He gives Gil-galad nuts of the Mallorn. But since these do not grow well in Lindon Gil-galad gives them to Galadriel.
1000 SA: Galadriel does make contact with Lórien, which is slowly sindarized due to the migration of Elves from Eregion. Galadriel does plant the Mallorns in Lórien.
1200 SA: Sauron comes to Eregion.
1350 - 1400 SA: Celebrimbor makes himself lord of Eregion. Celeborn stays in Eregion but Galadriel goes to Lorien.
1693 SA: The War of Sauron against Eregion begins. Celebrimbor visits Lorien and gives Galadriel Nenya.
1697 SA: Celeborn makes a sortie and is able to joins Elrond, who has come from Lindon to help in the fight against Sauron. Sauron takes Eregion and slays Celebrimbor. When Sauron attacks Elrond and Celeborn, Galadriel with Elves from Lorien and Durin III. with Dwarves from Moria attack Sauron from behind. Elrond and Celeborn retreat to the north and build Imladris, while the gates of Moria are closed before Sauron approach.
1750 SA: About this time comes Galadriel to Imladris and meets Celeborn. Celebrian is with her and Elrond falls in love with her. Galadriel and Celebron go to Lorien and fortify it against Sauron trying to cross Anduin again.
1800 SA: About this time Galadriel and Celebrian leave Lorien and go to South-Lindon. Celeborn follows later on.
2400 SA: Galadriel and Celeborn visit Lorien again but go then to Imladris. Only short time later they move agian. Together with Celebrian they go to the mouth of Gwathlo and dwell at the place later known as Dol Amroth. Celeborns Neff Amroth does visit them at times and some Elves from Lorien stay with them.
3433 SA: In the Battle of Dargorlad Amdír is slain.

1 Third Age: Amdír son Amroth comes back to Lorien and becomes Lord of Lorien.
109 TA: Elrond marriages Celebrian.
1000 TA: About this time Galadriel and Celeborn come again to Lorien. Galadriel makes long journeys through Rhovanion from the borders of Gondor to the realm of Thranduil in the North-East of Mirkwood.
1100 TA: Galadriel and Celeborn go to Imladris.
1981 TA: Nain I. slain, the Dwarves leave Moria. Amroth and Nimrodel are lost. Galadriel and Celeborn come to Lorien and become Lord and Lady of Lorien.
2509 TA: Celebrian is attacked on Redhorn-pass.
2510 TA: Celebrian laves Middle-Earth.
3019 TA: 3 attacks on Lorien are repelled. After the fall of Barad-dûr Celeborn crosses Anduin and destroys with the help of Galadriel Dol Guldur. Celeborn makes the south of Mirkwood a part of his realm. Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond journey to Minas Tirith for the marriage of Arwen and Elessar.
3021 TA: Galadriel and Elrond leave Middle-Earth.

30 Fourth Age: About this time Celeborn leaves Lorien and goes to Imladris.
61 FA: About this time Celeborn and his grandsons Elladan and Elrohir leave Middle-Earth.

Many of the dates are speculative as is of course the complete compilation of events.

Respectfully
Findegil

[cellurdur]

Do you have any evidence that first cousins were allowed to marry if there other parent were not kin? This seems to go against what we know with Maeglin and Idril. Maeglin's father was a Dark Elf related to the Noldor, but Idril's mother was of the Vanyar. In fact Idril was more Vanyar than Noldor.

In the case of Galadriel if we are to accept that Celeborn was the son of Elmo then there is no problem since they would be second cousins and not first.

Also I don't think it is correct to associate Malgalad/Amdir with Galadon. If this was the case they would be close kindred with Elrond and more would be mentioned about this. I find you are unnecessarily shrinking the Sindar royal family and erasing characters. Amdir/Malgalad can easily be a prince of the Sindar without being so closely related to Thingol as to be his great nephew.

As for Nimloth surviving the sack of Doriath, this seems quite unlikely. We never hear from her again. It is perhaps more likely she was killed in the destruction.

[Galin]

In the case of Celebrimbor being from Gondolin, I think Tolkien had just forgotten what he had previously wrote. This story is later than the LOTR and there he has Celebrimbor as a descendant of Feanor. In this version there is still an Enerdhil, but he and Celebrimbor were friends in Gondolin.

I don't think Tolkien forgot, as I think Celebrimbor as a Feanorean was later than the Elessar text, and only entered The Lord of the Rings in the revised edition (it also entered in a change to the text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn as well).

In The Elessar, Celebrimbor is first friends with Enerdhil... but the note at the end makes Celebrimbor the maker of the jool, displacing Enerdhil (which might call into question if Enerdhil was still to be part of the tale at this point). So what I'm suggesting is that since we probably do not have Celebrimbor the Feanorean in Gondolin at all, then the maker of the jool in Gondolin can once again become Enerdhil... and Celebrimbor can make the later one in Eregion.


Regarding Findegil's post: that's a lot of work but it seemingly ignores what JRR Tolkien himself published in The Road Goes Ever On about both Galadriel and Celeborn.

I'm sure you have your reasons but to my mind the history here is muddled enough, and while these late variations are certainly interesting, I don't see why they should trump 'authorized' text, especially given that even Tolkien himself notes that late in life his memory was not retentive...

... and this adumbrated tale is about as late as it gets. I really can't see Tolkien's concern with inner consistency, as noted by Christopher Tolkien, allowing him to simply write a notably new history of Galadriel with no suggestion at all that he was aware of the major inconsistency he would be creating with two characters...

... unless he had merely forgotten what he had published versus what he had written.


Not to mention that (in my opinion) he would now have an arguably more difficult explanation before him as to why Celeborn 'from Aman' (if so) remained in Middle-earth for a time when Galadriel sailed (and was seemingly unhappy about this given his words to Aragorn in the book).

Tolkien could explain this somewhow, yes, I mean JRRT was quite inventive... but I note that when he did explain it, the explanation included that Celeborn had never been Over Sea, and would be leaving his long home of Middle-earth.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

I don't think Tolkien forgot, as I think Celebrimbor as a Feanorean was later than the Elessar text, and only entered The Lord of the Rings in the revised edition (it also entered in a change to the text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn as well).

In The Elessar, Celebrimbor is first friends with Enerdhil... but the note at the end makes Celebrimbor the maker of the jool, displacing Enerdhil (which might call into question if Enerdhil was still to be part of the tale at this point). So what I'm suggesting is that since we probably do not have Celebrimbor the Feanorean in Gondolin at all, then the maker of the jool in Gondolin can once again become Enerdhil... and Celebrimbor can make the later one in Eregion.

Are the inscriptions on the door of Moria from a the revised edition? Seems incredulous that any Elf of Gondolin would leave place the mark of Feanor above their door unless they were from there.

Christopher Tolkien's language appears to suggest that he believes the text comes after the revision of Celebrimbor's ancestry. Since he says he 'again' appears as an Elf from Gondolin.

I tend to go with what it was published unless it was a huge mistake. I think we can all accept that Celebrimbor was the son of Curufin.

I agree we can once again insert Enerdhil and have Celebrimbor as the maker of the 2nd Elessar, but I don't think Galadriel's character fits with her portrayal in Tolkien's last vision of her. She is dangerous close to encouraging Celebrimbor to forge the Great Rings in her language and she is still too prideful to accept the council of the Valar.

I am more inclined to have Glorfindel returning at some point in the 2nd Age replace Gandalf in the text and hand her the Elessar. Glorfindel being from Gondolin would be very aware of it's powers perhaps more so than even Gandalf.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Are the inscriptions on the door of Moria from a the revised edition? Seems incredulous that any Elf of Gondolin would leave place the mark of Feanor above their door unless they were from there.

The markings on the Door are from the first edition, yes, but see note 7 to Of Dwarves And Men.

Christopher Tolkien's language appears to suggest that he believes the text comes after the revision of Celebrimbor's ancestry. Since he says he 'again' appears as an Elf from Gondolin.

I think he means 'again' as this concept had appeared previously in this chapter. In Unfinished Tales when Christopher Tolkien says 'again' he refers the reader back to the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (CG&C). And in note 7 he uses the word 'reappears', noting again both CG&C and The Elessar. After quoting CG&C, Christopher writes:

He reappears as a jewel-smith of Gondolin in the text The Elessar (...); but against the passage in concerning Galadriel and Celeborn just cited my father noted that it would be better to 'make him a descendant of Feanor'. Thus in the second edition (1966)...'

Note 7, Of Dwarves And Men

At the beginning of this note, CJRT explains:

'The earliest statement on the subject [Celebrimbor] is found in the post Lord of the Rings text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn.'

And so far I can't find any reference to Celebrimbor being a descendant of Feanor in the drafts for The Lord of the Rings.

I tend to go with what it was published unless it was a huge mistake. I think we can all accept that Celebrimbor was the son of Curufin.

Yes Celebrimbor the Feanorean was never in question for me.

I think any history should work around author-published concepts, as things become very subjective when considering the possibility of what Tolkien intended to do, again, especially given his memory and late texts. JRRT clearly intended to make ros a Beorian word for example, until he realized already published text hindered him.

Would Tolkien have contradicted history (already in print) about Galadriel's role in the Rebellion, she being a rather major character? I don't think so... others might... he did alter that 'Finrod' was her father for example, from the first edition, but we know that for certain because JRRT himself published the revision.

In the end we have author-published text with RGEO, which is a description written in consideration of Galadriel's own words in The Lord of the Rings as well, versus a posthumously published account that never got beyond an adumbrated state and shows no indication that Tolkien was aware he would be dealing with some notable contradictions to history already on public bookshelves, so to speak.

I am more inclined to have Glorfindel returning at some point in the 2nd Age replace Gandalf in the text and hand her the Elessar. Glorfindel being from Gondolin would be very aware of it's powers perhaps more so than even Gandalf.

It's also possible that Tolkien intended to 'garble' this chronology a bit -- or rather let's say, perhaps he purposely allows the reader to wonder why Galadriel would not simply use Nenya at this point -- to inject a measure of doubt with respect to this version, although that's pure speculation on my part, admittedly.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

The markings on the Door are from the first edition, yes, but see note 7 to Of Dwarves And Men.

I have read it, you are right and I am in agreement.

I think any history should work around author-published concepts, as things become very subjective when considering the possibility of what Tolkien intended to do, again, especially given his memory and late texts. JRRT clearly intended to make ros a Beorian word for example, until he realized already published text hindered him.

Would Tolkien have contradicted history (already in print) about Galadriel's role in the Rebellion, she being a rather major character? I don't think so... others might... he did alter that 'Finrod' was her father for example, from the first edition, but we know that for certain because JRRT himself published the revision.

In the end we have author-published text with RGEO, which is a description written in consideration of Galadriel's own words in The Lord of the Rings as well, versus a posthumously published account that never got beyond an adumbrated state and shows no indication that Tolkien was aware he would be dealing with some notable contradictions to history already on public bookshelves, so to speak.

It's also possible that Tolkien intended to 'garble' this chronology a bit -- or rather let's say, perhaps he purposely allows the reader to wonder why Galadriel would not simply use Nenya at this point -- to inject a measure of doubt with respect to this version, although that's pure speculation on my part, admittedly.

Christopher Tolkien had previously mentioned how his father felt bound to things that were in print like he probably would have with Celebrimbor. However, he does mention the problem with Galadriel is philosophical. The Galadriel of the original history is not as noble he wants her to be. She has many faults and unless we choose to believe that she grew greatly due to her suffering then it is hard to make things fit.

I am still undecided at version of events to go with. For me there is a problem either way. The original version does not fit with the character Galadriel wanted to be, and the newer version fails to fit in with the published history or things around it.

As for why she did not use, Nenya, perhaps it was due to a desire to heal things. The Great Rings had the power to heal the hurts of the world, but their primary power was in preservation. The Elessar seems purely focused on healing the hurts of the world, but even then that does not seem a good enough reason.

There is also the problem that Galadriel said she gave the Elessar to Celebrian, but Celebrian would have been in Imladris before Galadriel took up permanent residence in Lorien.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Kinship: That first cousins are not allowed to marriage is wrong. It would only be forbidden if the parents that were not brethren and/or sister were also akin.

I'm going to have to ask for a citation on that one. The paradigmatic example of the forbidden first cousin relationship is, after all, Idril and Maeglin; and whatever Eol's ancestry (kinsman of Thingol or Tatyarin Avar), there is no suggestion that he is related to Elenwe.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am still undecided at version of events to go with. For me there is a problem either way. The original version does not fit with the character Galadriel wanted to be, and the newer version fails to fit in with the published history or things around it.

I much prefer the rebel Galadriel. Possibly Tolkien desired to make Galadriel 'unstained' so that she could be better compared to the Virgin Mary (I have seen this argument anyway), but anyway I don't think an unstained Galadriel is a better character, and I see nothing necessarily 'less Christian' (if someone were to point out the arguable importance of Tolkien's faith with respect to the Galadriel matter) about a penitent Galadriel as compared to an unstained one.

Her great test is the One, why not begin with the proud 'young' Galadriel as one of the leaders of the Rebellion? Banned from Aman at the end of the First Age and proudly replying that she had no wish to do so.

To my mind the history of the early 1950s works fine with respect to the Rebellion (and even the Kinslaying, although granted this much could be altered). This version appears in the 1977 Silmarillion (with no mention of any role at Swanhaven), and it agrees well with JRRT's already published accounts.

There is both earlier and later text (compared to the early 1950s) that supports Galadriel and her brothers having no part at Swanhaven, although the earlier text only has Galadriel's 'ultimate brothers' of course, as it pre-dates The Lord of the Rings.

Again, if I recall correctly RGEO didn't reveal anything about Swanhaven, so I would have no great problem with adding Nerwen's defense of the Teleri here (noted in late texts for example)... but not with Celeborn however, as he was back in Beleriand...

... being Sindarin