The Maiar

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Ardent

One of the Valar (at least) must have sung the herbs into being.

That would have been Yavanna, Valier of all that grows; and it was in fact she who both made the request that led to the Ents coming into being, and who included Radagast among the Istari.

On the other hand, Radagast seems to have been more concerned with animals rather than plants; Treebeard says that Gandalf was "the only Wizard who really cares about trees."

[Findegil]

About Question I 5) I would like to add the following thought to Sarumanias very good answer: No Ainur (nor any fea of Erus children) could be extinguished by any means. The might to do that would only Eru have. And it would be as if you would try to force an idea you once had have to be as if never thought. If we are (as is Christian believe) build as lesser images of the Creator, then this special act would be very dificult even for an almighty God!

Anyhow, Tolkien makes it clear that in his sub-created world Ainur could not be extinguished.
That means Morgoth personally was cast out of Arda (probably also out of Ea), but that did not eliminate the Melkor content in Arda. The main problem of all these bad-guys was that by dominating their surrounding they distribute their own might, were by they reduce their personal being. Morgoth did that with the whole world ('Arda was Morgoth Ring'). Sauron with the Rings of Power and especially with the One Ring. With Saruman we are not that sure, but his trials in Ring-making are indications. Morgoth was removed as a person, but his sinister influence remained. Sauron was reduced personally to a ghost not able to make his hatred against the world effective. And the same seems to be true for Saruman.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Morgoth did that with the whole world ('Arda was Morgoth Ring').

Which, for me, adds an extra "flavor" to a tale of the prophecy of the Dagorath that it was only at the end of Time (i.e. the end of the sotry of Ea "whos life is time") that Melkor would receive "his death and final end".

Sauron could not be finally reduced to irrecoverable impotence (at least to a point from which HE could not recover himself) until his Ring was destroyed. So Melkor could not be finally so reduced until *HIS* Ring (all of Middle Earth) was destroyed.
He could be cast out (through the door of night) and a watch set on the ramparts of the sky against his return, but the watch was only needed be cause, otherwise, it was possible FOR him to return. Once Time ended and his Ring (Arda) was ended, then he himself could, finally, be dealt his final end.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Sauron could not be finally reduced to irrecoverable impotence (at least to a point from which HE could not recover himself) until his Ring was destroyed. So Melkor could not be finally so reduced until *HIS* Ring (all of Middle Earth) was destroyed.

That's how I've always interpreted the idea of 'Morgoth's Ring' as well.

The analogy with Sauron's Ring is also interesting if you consider the effect that the Ring had on its bearers. If the One Ring tended to corrupt one who wore it, or even possessed it, then Arda itself must, through its 'Melkorian Element' have a tendency to corrupt those who dwell in it.

It is perhaps taking the analogy too far to wonder whether, since the One Ring could only be unmade in the fires of Mt. Doom, where it was forged, can Arda only be unmade through the power of the Flame Imperishable with which Iluvatar brought it into being?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

It is perhaps taking the analogy too far to wonder whether, since the One Ring could only be unmade in the fires of Mt. Doom, where it was forged, can Arda only be unmade through the power of the Flame Imperishable with which Iluvatar brought it into being?

That's sensible to me. Since creation had its beginning in Eru, utter destruction must be of him as well.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That's sensible to me. Since creation had its beginning in Eru, utter destruction must be of him as well.

There is an interesting (tho short) commentary on "The End" (of Middle Earth) in UT "Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin". Ulmo, when he spoke to Tuor, spoke of a rift in the armor of fate and a breach in the walls of Doom "until the full-making, which ye call the End."

I think that harkens back to Tolkien's description of the History of Arda as a Great Drama: like Eru is writing a living play; And "the End" is simply the completion of the Play - the "Full Making". But, of course, if the story of Arda is simply a Play, that implies something greater and more "real" outside the Playhouse. And that can be intriguing - even if it is not essential to enjoy the story itself.

[Findegil]

That the End comes from Eru himself is seen Ainulindale, where it is Eru that ends the play.

Respectfully
Findegil