Seven Stars, Seven Stones and One White Tree...

[Snowdog]

Quenta Silmarillion 19, Of Beren and Lúthien
"And in answer he sang a song of challenge that he had made in praise of the Seven Stars, the Sickle of the Valar that Varda hung above the North as a sign for the fall of Morgoth."

It seems, with the exception of Mithalwen, that Groin Redbeard's quote has been either overlooked or ignored. The seven stars of the Sickle of Varda was in the night sky over the Northern Kingdom of Arnor. Though I'm not sure it's mentioned anywhere, I think it was a part of Arnor's banner, and Arwen made the seven stars a part of the united kingdom banner that Aragorn unfurled on the Corsair ship as he came upriver.

[Galadriel55]

The stars are probably called that because of Gondor's flag. But what do they represent on the flag? Sickle, ships, it all works.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

...The seven stars of the Sickle of Varda was in the night sky over the Northern Kingdom of Arnor...

Presumably this would also explain why they were incorporated into Durin's emblems on the gates of Moria. Wasn't Eregion/Hollin part of the realm of Arnor?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Presumably this would also explain why they were incorporated into Durin's emblems on the gates of Moria. Wasn't Eregion/Hollin part of the realm of Arnor?

I suppose it depends whether or not the stars of Kheled-zâram were the same as the Sickle of the Valar.
Here's a link I stumbled upon which argues that Durin's Crown was a different constellation to the Valacirca:
http://dwarrowscholar.mymiddleearth....ven-astronomy/

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Presumably this would also explain why they were incorporated into Durin's emblems on the gates of Moria. Wasn't Eregion/Hollin part of the realm of Arnor?

Theoretically maybe but I think durin's crown wasanother name for the same stars. In our own world the southern cross is incorporated in to various flags perhaps most notably on the flags of Australia and new zealand.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Theoretically maybe but I think durin's crown wasanother name for the same stars. In our own world the southern cross is incorporated in to various flags perhaps most notably on the flags of Australia and new zealand.

Yes, I thought of mentioning them and the Alaskan flag, though that represents Ursa Minor with the (North) Pole Star emphasised. Also I was considering how Ursa Major has variatious colloquial names (the Plough, the Big Dipper...) in much the way the seven stars of Arnor seemingly do.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Presumably this would also explain why they were incorporated into Durin's emblems on the gates of Moria.

From the earliest sketch of the Moria gate, the Stars of Durin were simply clustered regularly around the perimeter of the crown, not in the form of any constellation (although I suppose if one squints just right they might be the Pleiades)

Wasn't Eregion/Hollin part of the realm of Arnor?

Certainly not at that time: Arnor wouldn't come into being for over 2000 years when the Gate was made!

(Even then, Arnor's southern border at its greatest extent was the Greyflood, so it wouldn't have included Hollin.)

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

From the earliest sketch of the Moria gate, the Stars of Durin were simply clustered regularly around the perimeter of the crown, not in the form of any constellation (although I suppose if one squints just right they might be the Pleiades)

The arrangement of the stars on Aragorn's flag does not take the shape of the Plough/Sickle either. Also I recall that it says somewhere that the dwarves tell different and strange tales about their origins, so maybe the had a different tale about the same constellation. But I think I'm reaching somewhat.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Certainly not at that time: Arnor wouldn't come into being for over 2000 years when the Gate was made!

(Even then, Arnor's southern border at its greatest extent was the Greyflood, so it wouldn't have included Hollin.)

Oh well, it seemed like a neat connection for a moment there.