Beren and Lúthien - Changes needed

[Aiwendil]

Don't know if you're still around at all, Findegil, but here are my latest thoughts on unresolved points.

BL-RG-40:

But reading this again I see that I my have a wrong pronauciation of 'Gor-THAU-r's BATS.' Which most likley is realy 'GOR-thaur's BATS.' But then it is not better than your suggestion.

Ah, I see the confusion. I had indeed assumed the stress is on the first syllable in 'Gorthaur'. And this is the pronunciation that Encyclopedia of Arda gives, for what that's worth.

So, I think that in terms of stress and syllable-count, 'Sauron' and 'Gorthaur' are identical.

BL-SL-05:

We know that Morgoth heard of Luthiens wandering, so why shouldn't Sauron have heard? And since he is talking about a border skirmish at Doriath why not mention her?

It still seems a little awkward to me. I suppose that a train of thought leading from a skirmish on the border of Thingol's realm to Thingol's daughter makes some sense. But what still seems out of place then is:

Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard,

In the original, he has just been talking about Boldog's mission to bring Luthien to Morgoth. But in our proposed version, no one has yet said anything about her being in Morgoth's hoard. What about:

'Boldog, I heard, was lately slain
warring on the borders of that domain
where Robber Thingol and outlaw folk
cringe and crawl beneath elm and oak
in drear Doriath. Heard ye not then
of that pretty fay, of Lúthien?
BL-SL-05 {Her body is fair, very white and fair.
Morgoth would possess her in his lair.
Boldog he sent, but Boldog was slain:
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.}
Fierce is your chief, his frown is grim.
Little Lúthien! What troubles him?
{Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard,
that foul should be what once was clean,
that dark should be where light has been?}

Thus we remove the non sequitur but retain the mention of Luthien as a way of eliciting a reaction from Beren.

Also, I think BL-EX-10 can in fact be improved slightly further with:

<GA But Finrod, ere he bade farewell,
{But this I say}spoke thus to Celegorm the fell,
by{ the} sight{ that is given me} allowed him in {this} that hour:
{that}By neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain the Silmarils ever unto world's end.}their Jewels regain
before the End; yea, all in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall come {indeed} from 'neath the triple peak,
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour you all,
Fëanor's sons, and {deliver} to other {keeping} care
shall Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'>

This takes ever so slightly more liberty with the text from GA but makes the third and eighth lines of the section better metrically.

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:

Don't know if you're still around at all, Findegil, but here are my latest thoughts on unresolved points.

Yes, I am still around and will gladdly any progress we make.

BL-RG-40: We will stay with Sauron then.

BL-SL-05: Posted by Aiwendil:

In the original, he has just been talking about Boldog's mission to bring Luthien to Morgoth. But in our proposed version, no one has yet said anything about her being in Morgoth's hoard.

True, but then what does the mention of Lúthien mean at all? It is the interest of Morgoth in Lúthien that we need to tease Beren.
I may be do not rightly understand what is the non sequitar that does trouble you.

BL-EX-10: Agreed.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Hi, Findegil! Excellent to see you.

True, but then what does the mention of Lúthien mean at all? It is the interest of Morgoth in Lúthien that we need to tease Beren.
I may be do not rightly understand what is the non sequitar that does trouble you.

As I see it, in the original, the logic of the passage is this:

1. Sauron mentions Boldog's mission to capture Luthien and bring her to Morgoth.
2. (It is implied that) Beren reacts visibly to this.
3. Sauron asks why he reacts thus to the thought of Luthien as Morgoth's captive.

But what we have is now:

1. Sauron mentions the skirmish on the border of Doriath, which leads him to mention Luthien.
2. (It is implied that) Beren reacts visibly.
3. Sauron asks why he should react thus to the thought of Luthien as Morgoth's captive.

But in the latter case, what Sauron says in 3 makes no sense. No one has mentioned the idea of Luthien being Morgoth's captive, so why would Sauron think that this is what Beren is reacting to?

With my last proposal, the idea I had in mind was that Beren is no longer reacting explicitly to the thought of Luthien as Morgoth's captive. Rather, he's simply visibly affected by the mention of the name Luthien, particularly coming from Sauron; and Sauron notices his reaction.

[Findegil]

Maybe we removed then more then necessary. As I already argued above we have evidence from Sil77 that the interest of Morgoth in Lúthien still existed:

But Lúthien heard his answering voice, and she sang then a song of greater power. The wolves howled, and the isle trembled. Sauron stood in the high tower, wrapped in his black thought; but he smiled hearing her voice, for he knew that it was the daughter of Melian. The fame of the beauty of Lúthien and the wonder of her song had long gone forth from Doriath; and he thought to make her captive and hand her over to the power of Morgoth, for his reward would be great.

With this in mind probably we should make it thus:

1. Sauron mentions the skirmish on the border of Doriath, which leads him to mention Luthien.
2. (It is implied that) Beren reacts visibly.
3. Sauron father elaborates which interests Morgoth would have in Lúthien to see Beren's reaction.
4. Beren reacts grim.
3. Sauron asks why he should react thus to the thought of Luthien as Morgoth's captive. And goes even on teasing them farther.

Leading to:

'Boldog, I heard, was lately slain
warring on the borders of that domain
where Robber Thingol and outlaw folk
cringe and crawl beneath elm and oak {2130}
in drear Doriath. Heard ye not then
of that pretty fay, of Lúthien?
Her body is fair, very white and fair.
Morgoth would possess her in his lair.
BL-SL-05 {Boldog he sent, but Boldog was slain: {2135}
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.}
Fierce is your chief, his frown is grim.
Little Lúthien! What troubles him?
Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard, {2140}
that foul should be what once was clean,
that dark should be where light has been?

For us who have learned all that story of Boldog and his mission to catch Lúthien by heart, the hint is great enough that we build the connection, but is that true for a reader that does not have our background knowledge from HoM-E?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Okay, I like this last suggestion. It seems that you're right: the text of the '77 suggests that the motif of Morgoth's desire for Luthien was retained, even when the particular mission of Boldog was dropped. So I think at last we have agreement here.

I have quite lost track of whether there were other unresolved issues in this chapter - glancing back over the last few posts, I don't see any. If not, I think we're done with round 2 of Beren and Luthien. I know I have notes on further issues in other completed chapters; I will dig those out, review them, and post.

[Findegil]

I also looked into the points you commented on and found 2 small issues that are not finially discussed:

BL-RG-08.5:

There countless torches fitfully
did start and twinkle, as BL-RG-08.5 {the Gnomes}[Noldor] alone
were gathered to their fading {homes}home, [1835]
and thronged the long and winding stair {1600}
that led to the wide echoing square.

You suggested to skip all 4 lines because you did not find the ryhme of alone - home god enough. We both said we would look for a better solution. Did you find any thing? For me alone - home would work, but if you would better like to skip the lines we will do.

BL-SL-07:

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Then came word {3665}
most passing strange of Lúthien [3945]
wild-wandering by wood and glen,
and Thingol's purpose long he weighed,
and wondered, thinking of that maid.
BL-SL-07 {so fair, so frail. A captain dire, {3670}
Boldog, he sent with sword and fire
to Doriath's march; but battle fell
sudden upon him: news to tell
never one returned of Boldog's host,
and Thingol humbled Morgoth's boast.} {3675}
Then his heart with doubt and wrath was burned:
new tidings of dismay he learned,

You suggested to skip Luthien in this passage. But I don't agree to this. Seeing what we have done in the case of BL-SL-05 were we even kept Morgoth diseiring Lúthien, I see no reason why we should delet his interrest here.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Thanks for reminding me of those two unresolved points.

BL-RG-08.5: Well, I've stared at the lines again for a long while, and I still can't come up with anything. But when I suggested deleting the lines, I seem to have missed the fact that we would have to delete five lines and thus leave an unrhymed line. We might get by with:

The mists were mantled round the towers {1595}
of the Elves' white city by the sea{.},
{There countless}now lit by torches fitfully.
{did start and twinkle, as the Gnomes
were gathered to their fading homes, [1835]
and thronged the long and winding stair {1600}
that led to the wide echoing square.}

There Fëanor mourned his jewels divine,

BL-SL-07: Yes, I think you've convinced me that this element was not rejected after all. So we can leave this the way we had it.

[Elvellon]

BL-RG-05: Why not just make it past tense?

for Morgoth {shall}[was] BL-RG-05{by Gods}[by Valar] BL-SL-02{be} wrought
of steel and torment. Names she sought,

[Findegil]

Sorry for the late later answer. For the couple it selfit would work but in the line before we have: "the chain Angaionr that ere Doom" This Doom must be the War of Wrath not the War of the Powers I would think. That makes some statement for the future necessary in the next line (if we do not alter the couple above the fires in Angband's gloom;/the chain Angainor that ere Doom).

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Sorry for the late later answer. For the couple it selfit would work but in the line before we have: "the chain Angaionr that ere Doom" This Doom must be the War of Wrath not the War of the Powers I would think. That makes some statement for the future necessary in the next line (if we do not alter the couple above the fires in Angband's gloom;/the chain Angainor that ere Doom).

Respectfully
Findegil

For reference, here's my proposed rewording:

above the fires in Angband’s gloom;
the chain Angainor that ere Doom
for Morgoth was by Valar wrought
of steel and torment. Names she sought,

Maybe I'm missing something, but that doesn't strike my ear/eye as a problem.

Angainor was wrought before the War of the Powers, which was before the War of Wrath. The Lay doesn't specify that it shall be wrought immediately prior to Morgoth's Doom, so I don't see it as necessary to put the line in future tense.

This rewording does less harm to Tolkien's text, and what's more, allows it to be read in multiple ways: Angainor was wrought before "Doom for Morgoth", the judgment delivered by Manwe in the Ring of Doom after the War of Powers, and it was thus also wrought before Morgoth's ultimate Doom, where it was used again after the War of Wrath. Indeed, Angainor proved to be the Oppressor that followed Melkor from doom to Doom.

[Findegil]

Okay, I can follow your argument, even so for me "Doom" did refer to the final doom of Mekor. But yes, it could refer to the doom spoken after he was captured in the War of the Powers. To make that interpretation more straight forward we could de-capitalized Doom in that line? I as well find Valar here not well fitting as I would naturly make it "the Valar". But in that respect we could be more speciffic:

above the fires in Angband's gloom;
the chain Angainor that ere BL-SL-02{Doom}[doom]
for Morgoth {shall}was by BL-RG-05 {Gods be}[Aule] wrought
of steel and torment. Names she sought,

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Okay, I can follow your argument, even so for me "Doom" did refer to the final doom of Mekor. But yes, it could refer to the doom spoken after he was captured in the War of the Powers. To make that interpretation more straight forward we could de-capitalized Doom in that line? I as well find Valar here not well fitting as I would naturly make it "the Valar". But in that respect we could be more speciffic:

Respectfully
Findegil

I agree 100% with the change to Aulë. That was my preference too, but I was being cautious about straying too far from the original.

As far as capitalizing vs. not capitalizing, I don't see any good reason not to capitalize it. Trust the reader's ability to interpret. Not to mention, Tolkien was fond of capitalizing Doom:

• Ring of Doom
• Doom of Mandos
• Doom of the Noldor
• Doom of Manwë
• "neither law, nor love, nor league of swords, dread nor danger, not Doom itself"
• "For Ossë obeys the will of Mandos, and he is wroth, being a servant of the Doom"
• "But if I escape the Doom, what words shall I say unto Turgon?"
• "But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom"
• "Yet Doom is strong, and the shadow of the Enemy lengthens"
• "and by the power of Ulmo escaped both the Doom and the Malice"
• "There is the cure of all sea-longing, save for those whom Doom will not release"
• "There Doom shall strive with the Counsel of Ulmo"
• "And if Turgon will not receive me, then my errand will be ended, and Doom shall prevail"