Parts We Skip and Why

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Ardent

These poems sort of provide reference points; they point to one another across the two books in so much as they show the oldest races retaining the most childlike traits: ba ba, la la, ma ma, da da...

Maybe I'm just appreciating the childlike more because I'm getting older?

Some recent rock lyrics:

Originally Posted by Manfred Mann

Whoa, oh, oh, oh, oh yeah
Do wah diddy diddy, dum diddy do,
we'll sing it
Do wah diddy diddy, dum diddy do
Do wah diddy diddy, dum diddy do

Originally Posted by The Police

De do do do, de da da da
Is all I want to say to you
De do do do, de da da da
Their innocence will pull me through
De do do do, de da da da
Is all I want to say to you
De do do do, de da da da
They're meaningless and all that's true

Originally Posted by Jackson 5

Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah
Zip-A-Dee-A
Wonderful feeling
Wonderful day

Yeah

Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah
Zip-A-Dee-A

My oh my, what a wonderful day
Plenty of sunshine heading my way
Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah
Zip-A-Dee-A

Then there is the tradition of nonsense verse in English, which is really quite long and respectable.

Originally Posted by Children's nonsense rhyme

Hey diddle, diddle,
The cat and the fiddle.
The cow jumped over the moon.
The little dog laughed to see such fun,
And the dish ran away with the spoon.

And some other writerly folks.

Originally Posted by Wild Bill

Sigh no more, ladies, sigh nor more;
Men were deceivers ever;
One foot in sea and one on shore,
To one thing constant never;
Then sigh not so,
But let them go,
And be you blithe and bonny;
Converting all your sounds of woe
Into. Hey nonny, nonny.

Sing no more ditties, sing no mo,
Or dumps so dull and heavy;
The fraud of men was ever so,
Since summer first was leavy.
Then sigh not so,
But let them go,
And be you blithe and bonny,
Converting all your sounds of woe
Into. Hey, nonny, nonny.

Originally Posted by PG Wodehouse

Half a league, half a league, half a league on, with a hey nonny, nonny
and a hot cha-cha!

Originally Posted by Edward Lear

There was an Old Derry down Derry, who loved to see little folks merry;
So he made them a book, and with laughter they shook at the fun of that Derry down Derry.

Originally Posted by ELETELEPHONY

Once there was an elephant,
who tried to use the telephant
No! No! I mean an elephone
Who tried to use the telephone
(Dear me! I am not certain quite
That even now i've got it right.)
However it was, he got his trunk
Entangled in the telephunk;
The more he tried to get it free
The louder buzzed the telephee
(I fear i better drop the song
of elehop and telephong!)

Originally Posted by Spike Milligan

On the Ning Nang Nong
Where the Cows go Bong!
and the monkeys all say BOO!
There's a Nong Nang Ning
Where the trees go Ping!
And the tea pots jibber jabber joo.
On the Nong Ning Nang
All the mice go Clang
And you just can't catch 'em when they do!
So its Ning Nang Nong
Cows go Bong!
Nong Nang Ning
Trees go ping
Nong Ning Nang
The mice go Clang
What a noisy place to belong
is the Ning Nang Ning Nang Nong!!

There is actually a very long tradition of nonsense words and rhymes and poems and I think Tolkien was tapping into that with his tra la la lally elves and Tom, and it's not all related to childish stuff.

So you are in good company, Ardent!

[Mithalwen]

Not so very recent, zippadeedoodah won the best original song Oscar in 1947
Bb you needvto getvdown with the kids like fascinating aida..

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

...I think Tolkien was tapping into that with his tra la la lally elves and Tom, and it's not all related to childish stuff.

So you are in good company, Ardent!

Thanks Bethberry.
I don't know if JRR put it this way but I do draw a distinction between the 'childish' and the 'childlike'.
Childlikeness suggests the joy of those who can be like children by choice.
Childishness suggests the ruling passion of those who know nothing else.

Tolkien certainly drew on both ideas as there is a mean childishness to the goblins in The Hobbit: Grib, grab! Pinch, nab! ...

I wouldn't consider the goblins good company even though they're fun to read about.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Thanks Bethberry.
I don't know if JRR put it this way but I do draw a distinction between the 'childish' and the 'childlike'.
Childlikeness suggests the joy of those who can be like children by choice.
Childishness suggests the ruling passion of those who know nothing else.

Tolkien certainly drew on both ideas as there is a mean childishness to the goblins in The Hobbit: Grib, grab! Pinch, nab! ...

I wouldn't consider the goblins good company even though they're fun to read about.

You are of course right and I suspect Tolkien was too wise not to see both sides of childhood. Your identification of the goblins as childish is very intriguing. (It's a trait we might also see in Lobelia, before she redeems herself in the Scouring of the Shire, perhaps.)

And if the goblins are the precursors to the orcs, then we have a perspective on orcish nature as well.

And welcome to the Downs, by the by.

Mith, I've split my sides laughing at Fascinating Aida. Thanks for the links (elsewhere). I do tend to think that anything in the twentieth century is recent, in comparison to some of the first nonsense stuff in Old English!

[Gil-Galad]

I tend to read through the Silmarillion in a heartbeat, till I get to Turambar. I don't know why, but that part always makes me pause and not pick it up for weeks on end.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Mith, I've split my sides laughing at Fascinating Aida. Thanks for the links (elsewhere). I do tend to think that anything in the twentieth century is recent, in comparison to some of the first nonsense stuff in Old English!

But they aren' t usually classified as rock...:P just reminded me of my dad chuntering that you couldn't make out the words in modern stuff...but I shouldn't talk rather more of a baroque girl myself.