Balrog vs 200 000 dwarves ?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Tronin

It's been some years since I visited here (it was in a different guise at that time, I believe) and my knowledge of HOME has faded somewhat, so my apologies for any inaccuracies that may afflict my recollections. Regarding a few points that have arisen in this discussion:

I recall JRRT mentioning (in Letters, or was it UT?) that Galadriel could be considered the equal of Feanor, albeit differently endowed. I don't believe that she would be a match for a Balrog at all in single combat. However, I feel her power against such a foe would be in staying it's influence or say in countering the fear that it causes, rather than trading blows, be they physical or 'magical'.

Galadriel was a match for the athletes of the Noldor. There is no reason to think she would not be able to fight a Balrog for at least a little while. If the Wise were going to fight a Balrog then I doubt they would need to counter the fear. Aragorn and Boromir were fully prepared to face Durin's Bane.

Glorfindel would be loathe to face a Balrog again, even after his 'resurrection' and purification/'powering up' by the Valar. It is by no means certain that he could defeat such a foe a second time. There was along with his skill and courage an element of luck in his battle during the escape from Gondolin, the fall also contributing to his opponent's demise, if I recall correctly.

In the original story all the luck was on the Balrog's part, being able to grab onto Glorfindel's hair as he fell. Tolkien did note he would have to rewrite the story. If Glorfindel was enough to defeat a Balrog prior to his power up, why would his chances decrease when he was greatly enhanced?

Gandalf, also a Maia but wielding both Glamdring and Narya would have the best chance of the Wise of defeating a Balrog, I believe. And yet in doing so was himself destroyed. Saruman may well have been the leader of Istari, and as the White more "powerful" but like Gandalf was still not of a form that could manifest all his incarnate power. Not only did he lack the weapons (Ring and ancient sword) for such a fight, I hold that he lacked the courage and resolve as well: with the change that came over Saruman over the years, I believe he would have flinched at the end and not been willing to make the necessary sacrifice of himself in order to destroy the Balrog.

I did change for the worst, but he was still prepared to launch an assault on Sauron. It was mostly thanks to him that Sauron was driven out.

Similar to some others here, my impression of Elladan and Elrohir has always been over the last 30 years of reading JRRT that whilst they were still lords in their own right, they were closer in power/ability to the Kings/Cheiftans of the Dunedain than the elf-lords of olde. Of course as the Sons of Elrond they were possessed of an unequalled bloodline, yet they were born in an age when the power of the Eldar was on the wane, their foes were of a lesser kind than that faced by their forebears. Contributing to the impression they (potentially, in the rejected text mentioned) made upon Eorl's folk would have been the latter's superstitious nature and lack of contact with the Eldar, I think.

Enough for now. 'Night!

The early Kings/princes of Arnor included the likes of Elendil and Elendur. Elendil was similar in power to the elf lords of old as was by all accounts Ar-pharazon.

Legolas certainly seems impressed with them to suggest they compare favourably to the Elf Lords he saw in Rivendell. At the Battle of the Black Gates, Gandalf does say there are names there worth more than numbers alone and the Sons of Elrond do stand where the assault was going to most fierce. They directly stand opposite the Black Gate and survive the battle. I don't seem them being lesser in power than Arwen and she seems to be regarded as one of the more powerful elves.

Then there's still Elrond, Cirdan and Celeborn. Elrond prior to the third age seemed to have the most battle experience out of any surviving elf, except Cirdan.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond prior to the third age seemed to have the most battle experience out of any surviving elf, except Cirdan.

Not necessarily: Elrond was of course too young to have fought during the First Age, and while in the Second he did lead an army in the First War of the Rings (which was forced back to Rivendell), during the Siege of Barad-dur and the final battle on Orodruin he served as a herald, i.e. a noncombatant. In the Third Age, the only recorded fighting by the forces of Imladris was at Fornost, and Elrond delegated that command to Glorfindel.

By contrast, Glorfindel besides fighting in the sack of Gondolin and its aftermath almost certainly participated in the Nirnaeth; and I would submit in the Dagor Lammoth and the Dagor Aglareb as well, since according to Gandalf he had "dwelt in the Blessed Realm" and thus was one who crossed the Helcaraxe (and moreover as a Lord of Gondolin would, one assume, be an elder/senior member of Turgon's following). Depending on which version of his re-arrival one accepts, he also would almost certainly have served under Elrond in the defense of Eriador, and would have been present at the first overthrow of Sauron as an actual combatant.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Not necessarily: Elrond was of course too young to have fought during the First Age, and while in the Second he did lead an army in the First War of the Rings (which was forced back to Rivendell), during the Siege of Barad-dur and the final battle on Orodruin he served as a herald, i.e. a noncombatant. In the Third Age, the only recorded fighting by the forces of Imladris was at Fornost, and Elrond delegated that command to Glorfindel.

By contrast, Glorfindel besides fighting in the sack of Gondolin and its aftermath almost certainly participated in the Nirnaeth; and I would submit in the Dagor Lammoth and the Dagor Aglareb as well, since according to Gandalf he had "dwelt in the Blessed Realm" and thus was one who crossed the Helcaraxe (and moreover as a Lord of Gondolin would, one assume, be an elder/senior member of Turgon's following). Depending on which version of his re-arrival one accepts, he also would almost certainly have served under Elrond in the defense of Eriador, and would have been present at the first overthrow of Sauron as an actual combatant.

In the case of Glorfindell it really does depend on when he returned to Middle Earth. If it was during the Second Age then he would have had the most experience.

Elrond was not too young to fight in the First Age. The evidence suggest that he and Elros lead the Edain during the War of Wrath.

Where do you get the information that Elrond was a non combatant in the Last Alliance? Eonwe was Manwe's herald, but he led the forces in the War of Wrath. I would imagine that Elrond had a similar role. Then throughout the Second Age he was the chief military commander against Sauron. That is a lot of experience leading armies and therefore it is interesting in the Third Age he no longer goes to war.

[Tronin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Galadriel was a match for the athletes of the Noldor. There is no reason to think she would not be able to fight a Balrog for at least a little while.

We know she was a great athlete, however athletic ability (and training) is no guarantee whatsoever of combative ability.

There is only one sentence that I've come across that could give any credence to the notion that she could wield a weapon of any sort and that is in the late note written by Tolkien (published in UT) that says she and Celeborn 'fought heroically' in defence of the Teleri at Alqualonde.

Even accepting that revision to her story, it is an extremely long bow to draw to say that she could stand against a Balrog in melee. There were ample opportunities in her history for Tolkien to mention any fighting ability/prowess/experience, yet there is no mention of her presence in the War of The Elves and Sauron (Eregion) or at the Dagorlad/Orodruin. Even in the White Council's move to oust the Necromancer from Dol Guldur, in which Sauron willingly fell back to Mordor, there is no mention of a combative role for Galadriel.

I would hazard that someone like Aradhel seems more pre-disposed to this kind of physical expression of "power", and this discussion seems to me to be a bit of a D&D-ification of Galadriel. We should perhaps agree to disagree.

In the original story all the luck was on the Balrog's part, being able to grab onto Glorfindel's hair as he fell. Tolkien did note he would have to rewrite the story. If Glorfindel was enough to defeat a Balrog prior to his power up, why would his chances decrease when he was greatly enhanced?

In the original story Balrogs were far more numerous and less formidable individually than what they became later in the development of the mythology.

It was nothing short of an epic and remarkable feat for Glorfindel to overcome a Balrog. If he was so powerful that defeating such a foe was any less than an epic achievement then the duel wouldn't hold as special a place in elven folklore as it does, with the many songs sung of it.

Hence I don't believe that if Glorfindel, even though his later spiritual power approached that of a Maia, went toe to toe with a Balrog a second time that he would be certain of winning. He may well have a better chance than his first encounter, but it would still be perilous for him.

I did change for the worst, but he was still prepared to launch an assault on Sauron. It was mostly thanks to him that Sauron was driven out.

At that time Sauron was still not yet fully recovered, and if I recall correctly didn't Gandalf say that Sauron had long planned that retreat, hence avoiding a true confrontation?

Saruman may have been nominally the highest of his order, but Gandalf was not necessarily lesser than Saruman, as implied by Varda in UT. Gandalf also wielded weapons extremely suitable for the encounter, the like of which Saruman could neither obtain nor forge for himself.

The early Kings/princes of Arnor included the likes of Elendil and Elendur. Elendil was similar in power to the elf lords of old as was by all accounts Ar-pharazon.

By all accounts? Can you cite one of these accounts for me? I've read Akallabeth and POME once again, but can't find anything like this.

Ar-Pharazon may have been the greatest of the Numenoreans, but for me that doesn't put him up near the progeny of Finwe and their ilk, who are yet another order of elf lords above other elf lords.

Elendil may have approached being an equal with Gil-Galad, yet Gil-Galad as valiant and heroic as he is, pales against his forefathers.

Legolas certainly seems impressed with them to suggest they compare favourably to the Elf Lords he saw in Rivendell. At the Battle of the Black Gates, Gandalf does say there are names there worth more than numbers alone and the Sons of Elrond do stand where the assault was going to most fierce. They directly stand opposite the Black Gate and survive the battle.

I don't mean to gainsay the standing of the Sons of Elrond, they are indeed "elf lords" in their own right, as well as due to their birth. Elladan and Elrohir did deserve the praise Gandalf gave them, and the respect that Legolas afforded them. But simply put, there are 'elf lords' and there are 'elf lords'.

There can be no question that the power of the Eldar faded as the ages passed, however. I see the brothers as products of the Third Age: whilst there was still evil incarnate in the world, it was of a number of orders of potency removed from that which existed in the First Age.

I don't seem them being lesser in power than Arwen and she seems to be regarded as one of the more powerful elves.

Powerful? Arwen never struck me as powerful. Her "power" lay in the wisdom, lore and foresight of the Eldar that she possessed, but not manifest in the same manner say as the "power" of Galadriel, and especially not in the manner of Elladan and Elrohir.

Elrond was not too young to fight in the First Age. The evidence suggest that he and Elros lead the Edain during the War of Wrath.

They were young children when the Sons of Feanor attacked the community at the mouths of Sirion. They would have come of age during the War of Wrath, but can you direct me to this evidence? Thanks.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Tronin

We know she was a great athlete, however athletic ability (and training) is no guarantee whatsoever of combative ability.

There is only one sentence that I've come across that could give any credence to the notion that she could wield a weapon of any sort and that is in the late note written by Tolkien (published in UT) that says she and Celeborn 'fought heroically' in defence of the Teleri at Alqualonde.

Even accepting that revision to her story, it is an extremely long bow to draw to say that she could stand against a Balrog in melee. There were ample opportunities in her history for Tolkien to mention any fighting ability/prowess/experience, yet there is no mention of her presence in the War of The Elves and Sauron (Eregion) or at the Dagorlad/Orodruin. Even in the White Council's move to oust the Necromancer from Dol Guldur, in which Sauron willingly fell back to Mordor, there is no mention of a combative role for Galadriel.

I would hazard that someone like Aradhel seems more pre-disposed to this kind of physical expression of "power", and this discussion seems to me to be a bit of a D&D-ification of Galadriel. We should perhaps agree to disagree.

Galadriel certainly did not fight much, but that does not mean she was not capable of it when the time came. An example of this would be the case Alqualonde. She needs no training to fight fiercely in defense of her mother's kin here. We can extend the same thought to all of the Eldar really. The Vanyar don't need experience to be great fighters when they arrive in Middle Earth and either did Feanor. If Galadriel was one of best athletes in the times of Fingolfin and Fingon then I don't think she would have lost any of her ability. Just, because she chose not to bare arms, does not mean she would not at a push. Idril fought as fiercely as tigress to save Earendil.

In the original story Balrogs were far more numerous and less formidable individually than what they became later in the development of the mythology.

It was nothing short of an epic and remarkable feat for Glorfindel to overcome a Balrog. If he was so powerful that defeating such a foe was any less than an epic achievement then the duel wouldn't hold as special a place in elven folklore as it does, with the many songs sung of it.

Hence I don't believe that if Glorfindel, even though his later spiritual power approached that of a Maia, went toe to toe with a Balrog a second time that he would be certain of winning. He may well have a better chance than his first encounter, but it would still be perilous for him.

I know that the Balrogs were raised in standing to Maiar and drastically increased in power, but was just pointing out in the original version the luck was all on behalf of the Balrog. Tolkien himself notes he would have to rewrite the fight.

However, what ever took place Glorfindel himself was enough to kill a the Balrog. He did not gain a marginal power up, but a significant one. His power was raised close to the level of Olorin.

He may not be certain of winning, but the odds are certainly in his favour and he would not be alone. Like with the attack on Sauron, it would be the Wise attacking together. What chance would the Balrog have if Glorfindel attacked with Gandalf at his right and Elrond on his left?

At that time Sauron was still not yet fully recovered, and if I recall correctly didn't Gandalf say that Sauron had long planned that retreat, hence avoiding a true confrontation?

Sauron was recovered enough and yes he did feign retreat, but it shows the power of the wise together and that they did attack and drive out a greater power than the Balrog.

Saruman may have been nominally the highest of his order, but Gandalf was not necessarily lesser than Saruman, as implied by Varda in UT. Gandalf also wielded weapons extremely suitable for the encounter, the like of which Saruman could neither obtain nor forge for himself.

Gandalf was less powerful than Saruman. Tolkien makes note of this, though greater, wiser and ultimately the most faithful. Saruman had weapons which were very effective against the powers of Sauron. I think those same weapons would be of use against the Balrog. That apart in this situation the Wise are attacking together knowing what they are up against.

By all accounts? Can you cite one of these accounts for me? I've read Akallabeth and POME once again, but can't find anything like this.

Ar-Pharazon may have been the greatest of the Numenoreans, but for me that doesn't put him up near the progeny of Finwe and their ilk, who are yet another order of elf lords above other elf lords.

Elendil may have approached being an equal with Gil-Galad, yet Gil-Galad as valiant and heroic as he is, pales against his forefathers.

Not to be rude, but you seem to focused with this notion that some of the latter elves were weaker than all the first age elves. Why does Gil-galad plae in comparison to his forefathers? He seems much more powerful and wiser than his own father Orodreth. There are no statements to remotely imply Gil-galad did not live up to the other Elvish princes.

Why is Elendil just approaching the power of Gil-galad? They are equals and partners and both play a significant role in killing Sauron.

Then there is Elrond, who has greater feats of magic than any of the Elvish princes of the first age except Feanor and battle experience to rival any of them.

The people of Hador were the peers of the Elven Lords and their chiefs comparable to the House of Fingolfin. Turin quickly rises to rule over Nargothrond, Tuor is third only to Maeglin and Turgon in Gondolin. Though from the House of Beor, Beren out matches the sons of Feanor.

"The Men of the Three Houses throve and multiplied, but greatest among them was the house of Hador Goldenhead, peer of Elven-lords. His people were of great strength and stature, ready in mind, bold and steadfast, quick to anger and to laughter, mighty among the Children of Ilúvatar in the youth of Mankind."

The early Edain were every bit a match for the progeny of Finwe.

This was Finduilas' opinion of Turin.

'But you are kingly' said she 'even as the Lords of of the people of Fingolfin'

Then in the Children of Hurin once more he is compared to the Lords of the Noldor.

His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken at first meeting for one from one of the great house of the Noldor. So valiant was Turin, and so exceedingly skilled in arms, especially with sword and shield, that the elves said he could not be slain, save by mischance or an evil arrow from afar.

The Numenoreans grew in power until all the people were pretty much indistinguishable from elves let alone the royal house. Look at how the Numenoreans rout Sauron's forces and almost kill him or later force his army to give up.

They(Numenoreans) became thus in appearance and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the the Elves

Ar-pharazon was just like one of these men, but lacked wisdom.

In one of the early sources about Ar-pharazon found in HOMEXII

He was a man of great beauty and stature, in the likeness of the first kings of men: and indeed in his youth he was not unlike the Edain of old in mind also, although he had courage and strength of will rather than wisdom,

I don't mean to gainsay the standing of the Sons of Elrond, they are indeed "elf lords" in their own right, as well as due to their birth. Elladan and Elrohir did deserve the praise Gandalf gave them, and the respect that Legolas afforded them. But simply put, there are 'elf lords' and there are 'elf lords'.

There can be no question that the power of the Eldar faded as the ages passed, however. I see the brothers as products of the Third Age: whilst there was still evil incarnate in the world, it was of a number of orders of potency removed from that which existed in the First Age.

I am not sure the power of the Elvish Lords faded as much as you like to think. As I said before Elrond has greater displays of magic than any of the princes in the first age except Feanor. Galadriel and Glorfindel are around and in the case of Glorfindel he is stronger than ever.

It was only in the Second Age that Celebrimbor and his guild surpass all other smiths of the Noldor except the greatest one. He also seems to put up a very impressive last stand against Sauron himself and resist all kinds of torture to keep secret the location of the three.

In Eregion the craftsmen of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the People of the Jewel-smiths, surpassed in cunning all that have ever wrought, save only Fëanor himself; and indeed greatest in skill among them was Celebrimbor, son of Curufin, who was estranged from his father and remained in Nargothrond when Celegorm and Curufin were driven forth-Silmarillion

The elves as a whole were less active and more passive, but there power had yet to fade on a personal level.

Legolas himself had been at Rivendell, seen Galadriel and many of the great Elf Lords of the first age. He has no problem comparing the two.

Powerful? Arwen never struck me as powerful. Her "power" lay in the wisdom, lore and foresight of the Eldar that she possessed, but not manifest in the same manner say as the "power" of Galadriel, and especially not in the manner of Elladan and Elrohir.

Yes I agree that Arwen's power was not in same manner as the sons of Elrond, but she was regarded as great and of high standing with the elves. Her brothers would have likewise standing.

They were young children when the Sons of Feanor attacked the community at the mouths of Sirion. They would have come of age during the War of Wrath, but can you direct me to this evidence? Thanks.

Yes they were young children, but they had reached their teenage years when the Hose of the Valar came.

Elrond remembers seeing them and none of the Elves of Middle Earth saw their march or took part in the war. Since Elrond DID see their march he must have been with them and I fail to see why a young Elrond would not take part in the war if he was with the Host of Valinor.

It recalled to me the glory of the Elder days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair as when Thangorodium was broken

So Elrond was there. Note that he does not say the captains of the Last Alliance were less great, but just less fair and fewer of them. Also we have to remember that most of Line of Elros had died in Numenor.

Now the Silmarillion confirms that none of the Elves took part in this war.

Of the march of the host of the Valar to the North of Middle Earth little is said in any tale, for among them went none of the Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands.

Then there is the matter of Elros' kingship of the Edain. If he had been hiding out with the elves for the 40 or so year war would the Edain welcome him as their king? Why would Elros choose to be king of a people he did not know. Like with Elrond it is probable that both brothers fought in the War of Wrath alongside the Edain and that is how Elros was welcomed as King of all the Edain.