Native american indians?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I thought that it was just a bit of a pun on the New World to have the new lands formed after the removal of Valinor from the circles of the world. Numenor has paralels with Atlantisl

Yes, of course, the Atlantis link! Well put, Mithalwen. It is even more intriguing as apparently Tolkien himself had recurrent dreams of drowning. I think he might even had thought of it as a kind of archetypal dream, but I don't have the Letters at hand now to find the reference.

[Ulvenok]

If Valinor were America, then it would be more the mythological America than the real one we find in history.

Many westerners had a romanticised vision of the native american indians back then and I think even Tolkien might have fallen prey to this. The buffalo bill tour through europe popularized the legends of cowboys and indians, I don't think young Tolkien escaped this and it might have influenced him, but probably not.

That's interesting. A remake of The Lone Ranger with Johnny Depp as Tonto is being released soon.

P.S. But I removed the offending name from my previous post because I don't want anyone going on the warpath.

It wasn't offending at all, I love native americans. But maybe you "native" americans don't like native americans and thought you'd kill two birds with one stone? You don't have to apologize since I did not take any offense. If I had taken offense it'd be kinda too late to apologize you know.

You have already been caught with your pants down, maybe I should take my pants down too and we'd get on with it!!
On a more serious note, I agree with Bethberry.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Many westerners had a romanticised vision of the native american indians back then and I think even Tolkien might have fallen prey to this. The buffalo bill tour through europe popularized the legends of cowboys and indians, I don't think young Tolkien escaped this and it might have influenced him, but probably not.

Maybe. Certainly, Tolkien had no problem with "native" type peoples, he casts the Lossoth/Snowmen of Forochel (who as the ME equivalent of (probably Greenland) Ekimos/Inuit are problaby the closest thing we actually have to Indians in ME (yes I know Inuit are a different group than native Americans, but they are as close as we probably get).) in an extremely positve light (I apologize for having to use the world "Indian" if it offends but in this contex "Native American" doesnt really work, since Greenland isn't part of America [ A bit like the problem that I, who live in the US have talking about Lenny Henry in a PC manner (He isn't African American, because he isn't American, and "African British" doesn't sound quite right.) And in ME, NO human group can really be given the descriptor of "First Nation" (to use the Canadian Term)

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

And in ME, NO human group can really be given the descriptor of "First Nation" (to use the Canadian Term)

It is rather difficult, isn't it, to think of the Valar as the First Nation.

But if we think of 'indigenous', as a native inhabitant of a particular region (a definition that might even exclude the elves from Middle-earth) or more particularly as "ethnic minorities who have been marginalized as their historical territories became part of a state" then we might have two cases.

First would be the Woses, whose chieftain was Ghân-buri-Ghân. Aragorn's treatment of the Woses and his agreement with Ghân-buri-Ghân is insightful and a recognition of the Woses' right to their territory.

Second just might be the Entwives, whose garden region was blasted by Sauron.

So we may not have to look west for evidence of Tolkien's depiction of indigenous peoples.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

But if we think of 'indigenous', as a native inhabitant of a particular region (a definition that might even exclude the elves from Middle-earth) or more particularly as "ethnic minorities who have been marginalized as their historical territories became part of a state" then we might have two cases.

First would be the Woses, whose chieftain was Ghân-buri-Ghân. Aragorn's treatment of the Woses and his agreement with Ghân-buri-Ghân is insightful and a recognition of the Woses' right to their territory.

Second just might be the Entwives, whose garden region was blasted by Sauron.

So we may not have to look west for evidence of Tolkien's depiction of indigenous peoples.

Indeed. And as for the original question, my answer is a definite "no". There are various made-up races in fantasy and science fiction that are generally assumed to be based on actual peoples. But this is because they have specific, obvious points of cultural similarity. "Lived in harmony with nature" is much too vague to cut it.

[Legolas]

Prior to the last century of the Second Age with the sinking of Númenor, my understanding is that the Americas would have been the far-far east in relation to northwestern Middle-earth (where most of the stories take place). Valinor, Tol Eressëa, and Númenor (later called Atalantë by elves) were the only lands west of Middle-earth, and prior to the Third Age the former two had been removed while the latter was destroyed (al a Atlantis).

It wasn't until then that the world was made round. Thus, any lands discovered by men sailing west from Middle-earth after the Downfall of Númenor would have already present in the far east, just now wrapped around. This falls in line with Tolkien's plan for his Arda to be an Elvish account of the early days of our own earth.

The Avalon link is there as well, as the chief dwelling area of Tol Eressëa was named Avallónë. It was the immortality of Valinor that the Numenoreans sought, just as men hailed the healing and restoration of Avalon in the Arthurian legends.

After its removal, men would eventually find something very different off to their west: what had always been the farthest east, in the opposite direction of their initial migration, a land much more undeveloped in terms of their ideas of civilization.

Native Americans would've had their place in Tolkien's timeline, only he didn't (and probably never would) fill in the gaps between the beginning of the Fourth Age and the present. He reckoned we might now be at the start of the Seventh Age (and that ages had gotten shorter since), so I would guess that the discovery of the Americas would have fallen in the Fifth Age or Sixth Age, or perhaps would've been the significant event heralding the transition from Fifth to Sixth. He always chose significant events to prepare Age changes, such as the destruction of Beleriand and defeat of Morgoth (towards end of First), the destruction of Numenor (towards end of Second), and the final defeat of Sauron and the dominion of Man (end of Third).

[alatar]

As Legolas' ME geography indicates, even in Arda the aboriginal Americans might be mistaken for 'Indians' after the Fall of Numenor.