Unknown beings!?

[Ulvenok]

He may have removed the fairies but Tom and Goldberry are still there. Tom found Goldberry in a river and he sometimes refers to her as the riverwoman's daughter. Who is the riverwoman? Another unclassified being we know nothing about. Anyway I still find this quote intriguing.

They were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much...

It makes too much sense to be ignored, at least Tom and Ungoliant has to be of their kind. In which case Tom would be able to contest with the great powers, but never would since unlike Ungoliant he isn't concerned with a full belly or what is going on in the world at large. It's not in Tom's nature to fight, he is wholly neutral and just observes and studies everything as it is. So while he probably could make short work of Sauron, power really never plays into it since he isn't concerned with that or what is happening to innocent people in far away lands.

Anyway it's very interesting that Tolkien chose to include a being like Ungoliant in the Lord of the rings, a very minor major comment indeed.

[Inziladun]

Here is one of the many threads on the subject of Bombadil.

[Lalwendë]

I always think that Tom was part of Eru's creation of Arda itself, separate to the Valar, the Elves and Men. And put there by Tolkien to confound us! It would be very easy to have Eru create an ordered world with all the necessary gods and races in their correct place but Tolkien doesn't let Eru do that. Instead, Eru really is omnipotent and unknowable and lets beings like Tom and Ungoliant into his creation - as a result confounding all the readers!

We can only theorise

My theory on Ungoliant is that she isn't evil at all. She is simply an 'absence of light' or Un- Light. If Light is seen as somehow 'holy' in Tolkien's creation then Ungoliant is an absence of Light. She feeds on it like a black hole, but she isn't evil as she is part of what Eru either sent into the world or caused to happen during its creation.

[Rhod the Red]

Came to a sticky end too, didn't she eat herself?

[Elf_NFB]

I would say Ungoliant is a being of power somewhere between the Valar and the Maiar. It's pretty clear that sufficiently strong Maiar could defeat a Valar. Eonwe (Herald of Manwe) "whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda" So even the great warrior Tulkas could not defeat Eonwe.


At any rate, the Silmarillion describes Ungoliant as descending "from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted into his service." So, she was one of the spirits that entered the world after its creation.. just like the other Maiar and the Valar.

It's a pet theory of mine that lesser spirits (less than the weakest Maiar) explain creatures like the Eagles, Huon, Tom, and even (perhaps) Ents. These lesser spirits descent into the world but are not corporeal. They join the bodies of non-intelligent creatures and make them "more." The Eagles are HUGE. Huan can speak. Ents move about and speak. Melkor appears to do something similar with Carcaroth where "he became filled with a devouring spirit."

[Ulvenok]

I would say Ungoliant is a being of power somewhere between the Valar and the Maiar.

Yet she trapped Melkor the greatest of the Valar in her nets and made him squeal for his Balrog army, no sense.

It's pretty clear that sufficiently strong Maiar could defeat a Valar.

None can defeat a valar, Melkor was never defeated just thrown out of the world. So no a maia wouldn't be able to defeat a valar.

At any rate, the Silmarillion describes Ungoliant as descending "from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted into his service." So, she was one of the spirits that entered the world after its creation.. just like the other Maiar and the Valar.

I don't think it ever stated that she was corrupted into his service by him. Ungoliant's origins is like Bombadil's unknown. It'd be quite strange if Ungoliant was just another maia that Melkor first corrupted into his service, then she turns on him...

It's a pet theory of mine that lesser spirits (less than the weakest Maiar) explain creatures like the Eagles, Huon, Tom, and even (perhaps) Ents. These lesser spirits descent into the world but are not corporeal. They join the bodies of non-intelligent creatures and make them "more." The Eagles are HUGE. Huan can speak. Ents move about and speak. Melkor appears to do something similar with Carcaroth where "he became filled with a devouring spirit."

Unlike Bombadil those creatures or spirits are explained, Bombadil is not an ent neither is he an maia. That much is certain...

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

None can defeat a valar, Melkor was never defeated just thrown out of the world. So no a maia wouldn't be able to defeat a valar.

Given that none of the Valar fought in the Host of the West during the War of Wrath surely someone of sub-Valar stature must have been the one to personally best Morgoth at the end of the First Age. I always assumed it was Ëonwë himself who did the deed, although given how much Morgoth had weakened himself by that point he may be a bad example.
I'm not averse to the theory that Ungoliant was a being whose origin lay in the Discord of Melkor; evidently there were beings which operated outside the conventional Vala-Maia-Elf-Man "power structure" of Arda.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Given that none of the Valar fought in the Host of the West during the War of Wrath surely someone of sub-Valar stature must have been the one to personally best Morgoth at the end of the First Age. I always assumed it was Ëonwë himself who did the deed, although given how much Morgoth had weakened himself by that point he may be a bad example.

I doubt Morgoth would have dared to personally fight by that point, bereft of his minions. After all, it was only the fear of being humiliated and losing their respect that moved him to accept Fingolfin, a mere Elf's challenge. Morgoth was a coward at heart.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I'm not averse to the theory that Ungoliant was a being whose origin lay in the Discord of Melkor; evidently there were beings which operated outside the conventional Vala-Maia-Elf-Man "power structure" of Arda.

I'm in favor of the idea that Ungoliant and Tom Bomadil were possibly kindred spirits; both Ainu who entered Arda separately from the Valar, acting apart from them in pursuit of different motives.

[Elf_NFB]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Yet she trapped Melkor the greatest of the Valar in her nets and made him squeal for his Balrog army, no sense.

Of course it makes sense. Melkor is on a self destructive path where he divests himself of his own power. He becomes lesser and lesser over time. Read Morgoth's Ring in the History of Middle-earth series. It explains a good deal about how the greatest of the Valar is brought low.

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

None can defeat a valar, Melkor was never defeated just thrown out of the world. So no a maia wouldn't be able to defeat a valar.

Melkor was defeated.. not destroyed. Yes.. it is a case of semantics, but an important one. Melkor was defeated first just before the Elves arrived. He was defeated and imprisoned. He was defeated again after the War of Wrath and put forth from the world. Ungoliant had him all but beaten until the Balrogs saved him. Heck, even a Noldor hurt him enough such that "the pain of his wounds could not be healed." SO I would say a Valar can easily be defeated... though not killed/destroyed.

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

I don't think it ever stated that she was corrupted into his service by him. Ungoliant's origins is like Bombadil's unknown. It'd be quite strange if Ungoliant was just another maia that Melkor first corrupted into his service, then she turns on him...

Bombadil IS a complete unknown (and therefore fun to discuss). However, when I put something in quotes, that means the statement is a QUOTATION. The statement about UNgoliant comes straight from the Silmarillion... Chapter 8 "Of The Darkening Of Valinor".... second paragraph... a little more than half way through.

[Ulvenok]

"from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted into his service."

So you're saying she is an maia then, who managed to drain varda's wells dry and suck the sap out of the trees. And confuse the host of the valar that hunted them (Tulkas even), use unlight whatever that is to cloak Melkor and her when travelling through Valinor. And then to top all of that, trap melkor in her net...trap a valar in her net. If she is an maia she has some extraordinaire abilities.

Heck, even a Noldor hurt him enough such that "the pain of his wounds could not be healed." SO I would say a Valar can easily be defeated... though not killed/destroyed.

He chose to duel with Fingolfin, Fingolfin was said to be the strongest, most steadfast, and most valiant of Finwë's sons, and some have named him the greatest warrior of all the Children of Ilúvatar. If he had not chosen to duel with him he would have been able to make short work of him, he eventually also did kill him. I'm sure if he had been able to he would have escaped from Ungoliant himself but he couldn't, that he didn't points towards Ungoliant's above maia status in my opinion.

Not to say an vala would not be able to corrupt another vala like being close to himself in power. Also that quote:

from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted into his service.

I think one has to put it into context since before it it's said something like "but it's said among the eldar" or whatever. It's by no means absolutely true, It'd be nice to have some kind of clear distinction between maia and vala.