Head of the family? Earendil or Luthien? Dark or Golden?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by jallanite

No I am not. I merely put forth the argument which I believe, and I think almost everyone believes, that Eärendil would be a natural person to name as the main ancestor. I still doubt that Eärendil’s original desire to be mortal is considered at all. I never stated I now accepted what seems to me to be an absurd conclusion.

If you consider my discussion to be reasonable, then I suppose you no longer make this claim. That appears to be your logic.

I do not follow you here. I was asserting that even when the Numenoreans distanced themselves from the elves, they still held Earendil in the highest of honour.

And what about Melian and Idril? That they and Lúthien are not mentioned by the Kings of Númenor also does not surprise me at all. One would expect in a normally sexist society that only the male lineage would be commonly mentioned, as is common in medieval genealogies.

Why was NUmenor a sexist society? Numenor is not a medieval society and is wrong to assume that Medieval societies only traced their line through the male lineage. King Stephen inherited the throne through his mother and many lands in Europe were inherited through the female line.

Luthien is held in higher esteem than the other two and IS singled out as the fore-mother of her descendants. They are called the Children of Luthien, which you seem to ignore.

I am sure that is what Tolkien intended because I read Tolkien’s words as they are obviously meant. Tolkien begins by writing:

There Almarian the Queen observed her [Erendis’] beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor;

Tolkien does not write that Erendis was exceptionally beautiful (though that is probably to also be understood), but that that she possessed a “beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor”. Note the word kind which refers to a sort of beauty, not to beauty in general, for example to a buxom amzonian beauty, or a graceful slim beauty, or a red-haired, freckled beauty, or some other kind of beauty. You ignore Tolkien’s use of the word kind.

Then Tolkien follows this with the word for. He is now indicating the cause of this kind of beauty, not to Erendis’ general beauty. He writes:

… for Beregar [Erendis’ father] came of the House of Bëor by ancient descent, though not of the royal line of Elros,

So this kind of beauty comes to Erendis through her ancestry. Since Tolkien only mentions elsewhere that the people of Bëor were brown-haired and grey-eyed, presumably this kind of beauty seldom seen in Númenor would be that of the folk of Bëor and would refer to the brown hair and grey eyes common among the folk of Bëor, the folk of Bëor not being as common in Númenor as the mainly blond folk of Marach.

Tolkien then further indicates by plain statement the kind of beauty possessed by Erendis by writing:

… and Erendis was dark-haired and of slender grace, with the clear grey eyes of her kin.

Her Tolkien states, if it were not clear from what he had previously written, that Erendis is dark-haired and with grey-eyes; and that is the kind of beauty that she possessed which is seldom seen in Númenor. If Tolkien had intended Erendis to be compared to Morwen he could have simply said so. He did not say so.

Except Tolkien does write that Erendis was a great beauty even for that time. Tracing her descent to the House of Beor would draw comparisons Morwen and Turin. Morwen the fairest woman and Turin the fairest man.

By tracing her ancestry and the words he used to describe, he immediately draws the comparison. If I am not mistaken the text actually refers to Morwen too.

As I thought, there is footnote and the her close relation to Morwen and Turin is noted.

I did not say there was. There is only a strong implication. You asked, “I don’t think Tolkien ever said that the majority of Númenoreans were blond? Could you please provide the quote.” The only quote I have that you seem not to know about I provided. When put together with references to the fair-haired Hadorians and the brown-haired Bëorians in The Silmarillion, this quote indicates clearly that the majority of women in Númenor were of a different kind of beauty from Erendis, presumably different in hair-colour and eye-colour, and presumably blond like most Hadorians. Tolkien uses the word kind which you just ignore. Ignoring it does not make the word vanish.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:N%..._Needs_Editing for a note about this.

So you don't have any other quote except one interpretation of the text, which when looked at the full context could mean something else entirely. Especially since Aldarion himself is noted for being blond, which implies his father and perhaps the older kings of Numenor were not.

“Could” doesn’t change the fact that the reference twice refers to Lúthien and not to the others. I suspect Tolkien may have imagined this prophecy as given by Mandos to Lúthen, but that is only a guess. But if it is to be understood that a genuine prophecy was given, then it was given to Lúthien or about Lúthien, not to or about Melian, Thingol, or Dior. That the prophecy would be just as true if said of the others is correct. But it is not repeated about the others.

Even if the prophecy was given about Luthien, this still does not change it's application to Thingol.

The only matriarch ever mentioned by Tolkien Gollum’s grandmother. Tolkien did not used the word matriarch otherwise and so far as I see no-one but yourself considers Lúthien to be “the primary matriarch”. That is only title you have invented, unused by Tolkien except for Gollum’s grandmother.

Really what about Haleth. At present I don't have my books, but will provide the quotes.

No we aren’t. Nowhere, so far as I recall, does Elrond ever stated to be either part of the Noldor or Sindarin. He is always entitled “Half-elven”, but presumably as a descendant of Idril he would consider himself a descendant of the Noldor. Where is it stated that Elrond does not want to be considered as a descendant of the Noldor?

I never said Elrond did not recognise his Noldor ancestry, but he preferred to his Teleri ancestry and traced his lineage to Thingol rather than Turgon.

Elrond does not happen to mention Idril in the one case where he mentions his descent. That this means he rejects his decent from Fingon, if that is what you mean, would only be your own invention and a dubious one. Frodo indicates puzzlement and amazement that Elrond claims to have participated in the Last Alliance. Apparently Frodo (rather surprisingly) does not know any of the details of Elrond’s past. Elrond answers that “Eärendil was my sire, who was horn in Gondolin before its fall.” Presumably Elrond mentions when Eärendil was born as an indication of his age, dating back long before the Last Alliance, and parhaps traces his mother Elwing only to Lúthien because of the prophecy. Why Elrond does not mention his paternal grandmother Idril or his great-grandfather Beren we are simply not told. Why Elrond does not mention Tuor at all we are not told.

Your explanations are only your own inventions.

No I have several quotes and have provided them elsewhere and will do so again here.

Elrond preferred to trace his ancestry through Thingol.

It is to be presumed that with the reemergence of the lineal priest kings (of whom Lúthien the Blessed Elf-maiden was a foremother) the worship of God would be renewed

When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwë, Finwë, and Olwë and Elwë were united and alone preserved in Middle-earth. Since Lúthien was the noblest, and the most fair and beautiful, of all the Children of Eru remembered in ancient story, the descendants of that union were called 'the children of Lúthien'. The world has grown old in long years since then, but it may be that their line has not yet ended. -The People of Middle Earth

Here he outright tells us the reason why Luthien is considered to be head of the line over even Finwe and Elwe. Luthien is the most noble and that is why she is held first.

Earendil holds a similar position since he is the prophecised saviour. This is precisely why these two are the most beloved and held in the highest regard. The Numenoreans kings choosing Earendil over Luthien is therefore surprising

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I do not follow you here. I was asserting that even when the Numenoreans distanced themselves from the elves, they still held Earendil in the highest of honour.

Assert away at thing I don’t disagree with. But if you make up, as you did, things that involve understanding my own mind being changed, then expect the same nonsense back,

Why was NUmenor a sexist society? Numenor is not a medieval society and is wrong to assume that Medieval societies only traced their line through the male lineage. King Stephen inherited the throne through his mother and many lands in Europe were inherited through the female line.

All societies in Tolkien’s Middle-earth of which Tolkien tells us are sexist societies, with male genealogies of the royal houses. Númenor is probably the least so, but even there according to the New Law of Succession, if princesses refused to accept the throne, then the throne would be bestowed on the next male heir.

As to medieval European lands, do you deny that female succession in areas where straightforward succession by lineage dominated was very rare? Do you deny that male succession was the norm? I think not.

Luthien is held in higher esteem than the other two and IS singled out as the fore-mother of her descendants.

Never denied it. Never. Though I can’t help pointing out that most married women are foremothers of their descendants. That alone is not a great achievement

They are called the Children of Luthien, which you seem to ignore.

I have had not reason to mention “the Children of Lúthien” in this post. But either did you, before the last post. So blame yourself also if there is any blame. What else am I to be falsely blamed for not mentioning and so seeming to ignore?

Your accusation that I was purposely avoiding “the Children of Lúthien” was a false accusation. Please apologize. I do respect in Tolkien’s work the high value he attributes to “the Children of Lúthien”.

Except Tolkien does write that Erendis was a great beauty even for that time. Tracing her descent to the House of Beor would draw comparisons Morwen and Turin. Morwen the fairest woman and Turin the fairest man.

I notice you carefully don’t point out where my parsing of Tolkien’s sentence was wrong or that Tolkien uses the phrase “kind of beauty”. I still see my parsing as correct, confirmed by your inability to to even being to demonstrate what is wrong with it.

By tracing her ancestry and the words he used to describe, he immediately draws the comparison.

You draw the comparison, not Tolkien’s words. I don’t find your skimming over my parsing as an acceptable comment, unless you are intending to indicate that you can’t contradict my comments. What is wrong with my comments? Of course I see that you can’t find anything wrong with them and are stuck on the wrong side of an argument. So just admit you are wrong.

If I am not mistaken the text actually refers to Morwen too.

As I thought, there is footnote and the her close relation to Morwen and Turin is noted.

The footnote is an addition by Christopher Tolkien and I don’t see any connection made by Christopher Tolkien between Morwen and the “kind of beauty” that his father mentions. Christopher Tolkien does not even mention in the note that Morwen was famed for beauty. Christopher Tolkien does mention the hair and eyes of the House of Bëor. It is implied strongly by Tolkien that this hair and eye-colour was common to many of the House of Bëor. Christopher Tolkien quite naturally includes the information on Morwen from a previously unprinted table by his father.

Christopher Tolkien is not writing about what his father meant by “a kind of beauty” so far as I can see.

So you don't have any other quote except one interpretation of the text, which when looked at the full context could mean something else entirely.

No it can’t, unless you choose to ignore what Tolkien wrote, especially the words “a kind of beauty”.

Especially since Aldarion himself is noted for being blond, which implies his father and perhaps the older kings of Numenor were not.

I see no implication of any kind in this argument from silence. You ought to know better than to claim that an argument from silence can prove anything.

Do you now believe that most Númenórians weren’t blond? That seems to me to be very wrong, even from what is written in The Silmarillion, especially in light of your first post.

Even if the prophecy was given about Luthien, this still does not change it's application to Thingol.

I never claimed it did. But in fact this prophecy is given of Lúthien. But erhaps what the books say is what matters and I will keep to that. I can equally put back on you that even if the prophecy was given about Lúthien it still does not change such application as it has to the descendants of Eärendil and Elwing.

Really what about Haleth. At present I don't have my books, but will provide the quotes.

Nothing about Haleth. I never mentioned her and neither did you.

I never said Elrond did not recognise his Noldor ancestry, but he preferred to his Teleri ancestry and traced his lineage to Thingol rather than Turgon.

Prove this. The facts are that in a single statement Elrond didn’t happen to mention Turgon, but only Eärendil among his ancestors. But one statement is not enough to prove anything, especially what you want to prove. There is not sufficient data.

Hence, I doubt.

Elrond preferred to trace his ancestry through Thingol.

It is to be presumed that with the reemergence of the lineal priest kings (of whom Lúthien the Blessed Elf-maiden was a foremother) the worship of God would be renewed

When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwë, Finwë, and Olwë and Elwë were united and alone preserved in Middle-earth. Since Lúthien was the noblest, and the most fair and beautiful, of all the Children of Eru remembered in ancient story, the descendants of that union were called 'the children of Lúthien'. The world has grown old in long years since then, but it may be that their line has not yet ended. -The People of Middle Earth

Here he outright tells us the reason why Luthien is considered to be head of the line over even Finwe and Elwe. Luthien is the most noble and that is why she is held first.

Neither of these two sentences tells that Elrond preferred to trace his ancestry through Thingol. Neither sentence even mentions Elrond. You are unaccountably inventing the information that “Elrond preferred to trace his ancestry through Thingol.” That is a false claim without more evidence, which you seemingly do not have.

Hence, I doubt. Because your claim does not stand up.

Neither sentence states that Lúthien is “held first” genealogically or “head of the line″. There are two separate lines and Lúthien is not related to the kin of Turgon except through a descendant, Elwing. Lúthien is the most renowned of the Elves which I knew well from these and other passages previously. What you have provided is what I already know plus some incorrect statements by yourself that have no value.

Hence, I doubt. Because your claim does not stand up.

How do you expect to maintain your claim on obviously false statements?

Further oddities in these sentences which merely note in passing: The second sentence mentions Ingwë and Finwë who are only connected to the Half-elven through Eärendil grandson of Turgon (descended from Finwë) by Elenwë of the Vanyar who I suppose might be some kindred of Ingwë, though that is dubious. Olwë’s relation to the Half-elven is also claimed but no relationship is given, except through Thingol. Perhaps that is what Tolkien meant in this second case.

The Numenoreans kings choosing Earendil over Luthien is therefore surprising

It doesn’t surprise me at all. Why should this surprise me? The patriarchal lineage of the line of Núnenor runs directly up to Elros, son of Eärendil, son of Tuor. There is nothing surprising in the Kings of Númenor honouring the father and grandfather of their line of kings. Nothing at all. Especially considering Eärendil’s fame.

It only surprises you because you imagine that the Kings of Númenor spectacularly don’t honour Lúthien. But you can imagine anything you want though you ought not to make claims that you spectacularly can’t support.

Tolkien writes very little about the rites and entertainments of Númenor and so anyone can produce anything they want in fan fiction. I see you are pushing more than I know. Naturally I doubt. And arguments that don’t support you don’t help your case.

Yes Lúthien was very famed for helping to steal the Silmaril from Morgoth and rescuing her husband and herself from death. I don’t deny any of this and I never have. I do deny that one statement from Elrond and two from Kings of Númenor are sufficient to draw any firm conclusions. So I continue to doubt.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Assert away at thing I don’t disagree with. But if you make up, as you did, things that involve understanding my own mind being changed, then expect the same nonsense back,

I really have no idea what you are talking about and quite frankly I don't care. In future perhaps you should show a bit less hubris in your replies. I am only bothered to reply to this post so others can see the information.

All societies in Tolkien’s Middle-earth of which Tolkien tells us are sexist societies, with male genealogies of the royal houses. Númenor is probably the least so, but even there according to the New Law of Succession, if princesses refused to accept the throne, then the throne would be bestowed on the next male heir.

Most societies in Middle Earth existed in times of war and the leader needed military experience as well. It is normal that males would be chosen for the role and nothing sexist about it.

As to medieval European lands, do you deny that female succession in areas where straightforward succession by lineage dominated was very rare? Do you deny that male succession was the norm? I think not.

How does male succession in a time of war make you sexist? It was a brutal time and even when males were poor heirs were poor military, they quickly lost their throne. Though even looking at history shows us that family lines were traced through the most prominent person.

Nobody traces Prince Charles family line through Prince Philip. Even in the case of Prince Albert, who was a brilliant man, his children and descendants are only ever traced to his wife: Queen Victoria.

Never denied it. Never. Though I can’t help pointing out that most married women are foremothers of their descendants. That alone is not a great achievement

Most married women are not called blessed foremother and they certainly are not singled out of all other ancestresses.

I have had not reason to mention “the Children of Lúthien” in this post. But either did you, before the last post. So blame yourself also if there is any blame. What else am I to be falsely blamed for not mentioning and so seeming to ignore?

Your accusation that I was purposely avoiding “the Children of Lúthien” was a false accusation. Please apologize. I do respect in Tolkien’s work the high value he attributes to “the Children of Lúthien”.

You should be less arrogant, especially when you so often wrong. Though you have failed to address the issue at hand.

I notice you carefully don’t point out where my parsing of Tolkien’s sentence was wrong or that Tolkien uses the phrase “kind of beauty”. I still see my parsing as correct, confirmed by your inability to to even being to demonstrate what is wrong with it.

I pointed out how Christopher Tolkien interpreted the text. The man, who knew his father and knows the Legendarium better than anyone else. It is thanks to him in more ways that one we even have these books.

That apart the Beorians were a minority, but not rare in Numenor. An area roughly a sixth of the size Numenor was populated by them. This is even before we take into account the Marachians with dark hair or intermarriage between the groups. The people of Gondor seem to in the most part have grey eyes. In his later writings Tolkien suggest that the Beorians were usually brown. So the dark hair would not be something seldom seen in Numenor. 90% of Britain is white, but would not describe an ethnic person as something, which was seldom seen.

You draw the comparison, not Tolkien’s words. I don’t find your skimming over my parsing as an acceptable comment, unless you are intending to indicate that you can’t contradict my comments. What is wrong with my comments? Of course I see that you can’t find anything wrong with them and are stuck on the wrong side of an argument. So just admit you are wrong.


The footnote is an addition by Christopher Tolkien and I don’t see any connection made by Christopher Tolkien between Morwen and the “kind of beauty” that his father mentions. Christopher Tolkien does not even mention in the note that Morwen was famed for beauty. Christopher Tolkien does mention the hair and eyes of the House of Bëor. It is implied strongly by Tolkien that this hair and eye-colour was common to many of the House of Bëor. Christopher Tolkien quite naturally includes the information on Morwen from a previously unprinted table by his father.

Christopher Tolkien is not writing about what his father meant by “a kind of beauty” so far as I can see.

Then perhaps you should read further into the text. Where Erendis' beauty is once again brought up and there is a direct comparison to Morwen again. At this juncture Christopher Tolkien once more points to his original footnote where he traces her ancestry.

Considering Erendis was said to be more beautify than the Elves of Tol Eressea by some, then we begin to see why her beauty was seldom seen.

'and many of the Eldar high and fair were seated among men at the tables. But the people of Andunie, looking upon the blissful company. said that none were more fair than Erendis, and they said that her eyes were as bright as were the eyes of Morwen Eledhwen of old,'-Unfinished Tales

No it can’t, unless you choose to ignore what Tolkien wrote, especially the words “a kind of beauty”.

Yes Christopher Tolkien and the Professor later expand on what is meant. Her beauty was comparable to that of the High elves.

I see no implication of any kind in this argument from silence. You ought to know better than to claim that an argument from silence can prove anything.

Do you now believe that most Númenórians weren’t blond? That seems to me to be very wrong, even from what is written in The Silmarillion, especially in light of your first post.

You ought to read the story before commenting. The full quote notes Aldarion had hair similar to his mother. Tolkien uses similar language about Turin and it indicates the father had a different hair colour.

'Aladarion...vigorous in mind and body, golden haired as his mother'

I do believe the majority of Numenoreans were blond, but not the majority of the nobility, at least not at in the earlier years. Elros was most likely dark haired like Elrond.

I never claimed it did. But in fact this prophecy is given of Lúthien. But erhaps what the books say is what matters and I will keep to that. I can equally put back on you that even if the prophecy was given about Lúthien it still does not change such application as it has to the descendants of Eärendil and Elwing.

Actually since Dior had two other sons it actually does change the application to Earendil and Elwing, since Luthien's line would not necessarily end with the death of Elwing.

Nothing about Haleth. I never mentioned her and neither did you.

It seems sometimes you forget what you wrote. You previously said that Tolkien had not written about any matriarchs except Smeagol's grandmother and I reminded you about Haleth.

A clear example of a woman being regarded as head of the family line. In Haleth's case it is even more remarkable since she was not actually a direct ancestress of the ruling family.

Prove this. The acts are that in a single statement Elrond didn’t happen to mention Turgon, but only Eärendil among his ancestors. But one statement is not enough to prove anything, especially what you want to prove. There is not sufficient data.

Hence, I doubt.

To accuse someone of dishonesty is not very polite thing to do, even more so when I had said I did not have my books with me.

'it was Elros who voyaged over sea to Numenor following the star of Earendil; whereas Elrond remained among the Elves and carried on the lineage of King Elwe.
footnote reads
And also that of Turgon, though he preferred that of Elwe.-The Peoples of Middle Earth

Neither sentence states that Lúthien is “held first” genealogically or “head of the line″. There are two separate lines and Lúthien is not related to the kin of Turgon except through a descendant, Elwing. Lúthien is the most renowned of the Elves which I knew well from these and other passages previously. What you have provided is what I already know plus some incorrect statements by yourself that have no value.

Hence, I doubt. Because your claim does not stand up.

How do you expect to maintain your claim on obviously false statements?

The statement could not be more clear. Since she Luthien was regarded as the noblest, she is named first. What more could you wish for?

Further oddities in these sentences which merely note in passing: The second sentence mentions Ingwë and Finwë who are only connected to the Half-elven through Eärendil grandson of Turgon (descended from Finwë) by Elenwë of the Vanyar who I suppose might be some kindred of Ingwë, though that is dubious. Olwë’s relation to the Half-elven is also claimed but no relationship is given, except through Thingol. Perhaps that is what Tolkien meant in this second case.

I suggest you look at the quote again. It is that it is talking about Aragorn and Arwen's descendants, who would be be descendants of Olwe, through Galadriel.

As for the case of Ingwe, Christopher Tolkien admits that it was odd that his father made such a statement and wonders what he meant. The descendants of Aragorn and Arwen would be connected to Finwe by through Finarfin and Fingolfin. Further more they would be related, but not directly descended from Ingwe since Indis was close kin of Ingwe (either sister or niece.)

It doesn’t surprise me at all. Why should this surprise me? The patriarchal lineage of the line of Núnenor runs directly up to Elros, son of Eärendil, son of Tuor. There is nothing surprising in the Kings of Númenor honouring the father and grandfather of their line of kings. Nothing at all. Especially considering Eärendil’s fame.

Then why not Tuor instead of Earendil? Or even Huor? Both of them accomplished great deeds as well. Why does Elrond not follow suit?

It only surprises you because you imagine that the Kings of Númenor spectacularly don’t honour Lúthien. But you can imagine anything you want though you ought not to make claims that you spectacularly can’t support.

I am sure the kings of Numenor DID greatly honour Luthien, but they placed Earendil first and foremost, which is surprising since no one else of her line placed her second. Elrond himself does not.

Tolkien writes very little about the rites and entertainments of Númenor and so anyone can produce anything they want in fan fiction. I see you are pushing more than I know. Naturally I doubt. And arguments that don’t support you don’t help your case.

Actually Tolkien wrote a lot more than you think about Numenor, but never rewrote them. In some of his earlier writings such as the Fall of Numenor, it really stands out how the Numenorean kings held Earendil in the highest respect.

Yes Lúthien was very famed for helping to steal the Silmaril from Morgoth and rescuing her husband and herself from death. I don’t deny any of this and I never have. I do deny that one statement from Elrond and two from Kings of Númenor are sufficient to draw any firm conclusions. So I continue to doubt.

I provided you with three different statements from three different kings in addition with statements from the people about the role of Earendil. I could provide more from old material too.

As for the case of Elrond I have once again provided more than one quote. In the future if you were less arrogant and accepted that no one here knows everything about Tolkien or is perfect you might learn a lot more from others.

[Gondolin23]

Why don't they go further back in time? It seems to me that the more ancient your ancestry is, the more impressive it is. No one seems to claim Finwe as their forefather, or Olwe or Ingwe. One could say that's because they all lived in Valinor, but surely the Eldar knew who they were, and for mortal men, Luthien was as much a part of the distant past as Finwe. I suppose there's no Lay of Finwe to remember him by, however.

But if you stick to people who lived in Middle-earth, I wonder why no one claims descent from Fingolfin, who was the brave and noble High King of the Noldor while he lived, and who died in heroic personal combat with Morgoth, which the Elves remember but don't sing about, because their sorrow is too deep. That means it left a lasting impression on them, so men would be as likely to learn his story from Elves as Luthien's and Earendil's.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with claiming descent from Earendil or Luthien, but I wonder why others aren't included.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Gondolin23

Why don't they go further back in time? It seems to me that the more ancient your ancestry is, the more impressive it is. No one seems to claim Finwe as their forefather, or Olwe or Ingwe. One could say that's because they all lived in Valinor, but surely the Eldar knew who they were, and for mortal men, Luthien was as much a part of the distant past as Finwe. I suppose there's no Lay of Finwe to remember him by, however.

But if you stick to people who lived in Middle-earth, I wonder why no one claims descent from Fingolfin, who was the brave and noble High King of the Noldor while he lived, and who died in heroic personal combat with Morgoth, which the Elves remember but don't sing about, because their sorrow is too deep. That means it left a lasting impression on them, so men would be as likely to learn his story from Elves as Luthien's and Earendil's.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with claiming descent from Earendil or Luthien, but I wonder why others aren't included.

I think it's because Luthien and Earendil are held as the greatest of their ancestors. Luthien is the most beautiful, the most noble, the most powerful and achieved the greatest deed.

Earendil was a great power in his own right and was the saviour of Elves and Men.

These two had the greatest influence on Middle Earth, were (the?) two of the powerful and the most loved.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Most societies in Middle Earth existed in times of war and the leader needed military experience as well. It is normal that males would be chosen for the role and nothing sexist about it.

How does male succession in a time of war make you sexist? It was a brutal time and even when males were poor heirs were poor military, they quickly lost their throne. Though even looking at history shows us that family lines were traced through the most prominent person.

What about Finwë, Ingwë, and Olwë? They lived in paradise, and they were still the ruling monarchs (and don't tell me it's because they were leaders in ME. Anyone can be a leader, male or female). Frankly, choosing an heir in Tolkien's world is less a matter of having military prowess than the fact that they are male. Also, Hobbits were not the military sort, and yet even their society was mostly patriarchal. The only matriarch mentioned is Gollum's grandmother. Furthermore, many queens are not even named, let alone identified, when looking at genealogies. How is that not sexist? You're denying that human beings/elves existed because of their gender. You can say whatever you like about there being times of war, but that does not negate the sexism present on the whole.