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#1 | |
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
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#2 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Home (either of them)
Posts: 151
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Spoilers, you know.
Whoa. I expected to come here and meet a lot of criticisms and negative feedback, based on what how I see the film and how most of the people seemed to be a lot more negative about it than I was in the first place, and now I think my opinion might be the one of the most negative ones. I definitely didn’t expect that. And given that, I think I’ll need to see the movie again before I can have a proper full picture of the film, right now it’s just bits that I liked a lot and bits that I didn’t like at all, and these not forming anything proper.
I’ll start with what I didn’t like, because it’s on the top of my head. Azog, as many have said before, was useless and confusing. For a while I assumed it might actually work, when he appeared with the wargs and I thought “Hey, that makes sense! They’ll kill him here and thus will have an appropriate ending to the first movie, a separate plot, and we don’t have to watch him anymore in the next one!” …and then this didn’t happen. So he remained a useless and confusing side-plot. More controversially, I didn’t like Bilbo. I think. I had high expectations, having seen Martin Freeman do great in all the trailer bits, and what we had? Instead of a confused and surprised but still keeping-his-good-manners–hobbit who invites Gandalf for tea and treats the dwarves to all his food because that’s how he’s been raised, we get a rude slam-the-door and don’t-eat-my-things person who keeps turning back at every possible corner, until the sudden change-of-mindset due to which he decides to save Thorin from Azog. And I feel like most of the changes PJ has made to the story were affecting his growth-story, making him do things that were done by others in the book (like the trolls) or things that don’t happen at all in the book (like the Azog-fight in the end, or his plan to leave in the mountain cave), which made it jump forth and back unlogically. He didn’t feel likeable, or believable. Which was sad, because the original story is, after all, essentially that - Bilbo’s growth story. And another bit that I didn’t quite agree with that seems to be generally approved was the White Council. Especially Saruman. I mean, he’s supposed to be respected and “the wise” still here, right? And then he keeps going on about how he doesn’t like the dwarves not coming to talk to him and blahblah and is completely ignored by Gandalf and Galadriel who have their secret wee talk. No respect whatsoever. Which annoys me a great deal, because I feel like it’s contrary to PJ’s own works – in LOTR, Gandalf goes to ask for his help, talking about the greatest of his order and so on, and here he seems like a complaining child who wants to stop others from playing because he wasn’t involved in the first place. These were my main complaints. And then there were a lot of brilliant bits. Like the beginning with Dale and Erebor. Lovely, tell-tale-like. Beautiful, and a good way of explaining the background. The dwarves. I love the personalities given to them, I love Thorin, I think the young dwarves are adorable and enough childish to not to be only the sexy-dwarves that they were labelled as before. The already-familiar characters when they were younger and all was well. The cheery Elrond and his awkward hug with Gandalf, especially. I could include Gollum here as well, I loved the way they portrayed him. The songs. I’m so glad they included the songs, and as has been mentioned before, the misty mountains-song is one of the most beautiful things in all PJ films I’ve seen. Some of the references to the LOTR trilogy. Not the one with Gandalf getting mad in Bag End, though, that was really bad. I really liked the rock giants. They were very impressive, and pretty, and I’ve not seen transformers so that impression didn’t hit me during the movie either.
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#3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,448
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most are saying the bird poo and nest on Radagast's head was poor humor... if it was meant as humor it was indeed poor, for my part however I thought it shiwed more his compassion for living creatures. While extremely odd I found Radagast Quite well done, certainly his bravery in Dol guldor. The bunny sled while odd was used to good effect and not blatantly silly. My only complaint was the eye crossing, but only at one moment(I thought it was fine showing concentration on the incantaion) However when he puffs the pipe and goes crosseyed.... I always put the leaf down as more tobacco type of leaf not really in the narcotic family...
Bilbo was amazing very physical actor the way he walks and moves his neck were very good at explaining unspoken emotions. Gandalf well done, of course. I think his scene on the bridge with the goblin king was great it didn't feel recycled to me I understand how people see it that way but I feel it was unique enough no great proclamations or wizard tricks. Gandalf's line about the blue wizard's gave me a chuckle though I had thought they had been part of ousting Sauron from Dol Guldor. The out of the frying pan and into the fire line was misplaced I think, It should have been said in the trees when the fire was actually there(I always thought that was the reason for the title in the first place. Gollum played out as he sould the riddles game getting progressively more tense... Bilbo's Pity scene was a tad drawn out for me however... While we're in the area, I thought Bilbo was knocked out after falling through the crack and happened to be missed by the goblins originally, in te movie he just sort of squats and is suddenly ignored... Maybe Ihave to reread but I always thought of the stone giants as sort of metaphorical instead of real that was a bit shadow of collossus for me. As for length the length was fine and pacing fine, if this was going to be two movies. Ending on the edge of Mirkwood leaves Well, Mirkwood Dale and the battle of 5 armies, not a lot of material for two more movies I know he's using the appendices butI don't know how much is Actually in there... I'm glad the Rivendell elves didn't sing I'm glad Gandalf explained his relationship to the tooks without a baby scene. My only complaint which is silly(as it has no actual bearing on the movie itself) is Balin's Ear horn, out of all the props that just for me was the most intrusive. One last thought add my to the I thought Gandalf just woke Thorin up list... didn't seem very magiccy...(magiccy really?) to me
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Morsul the Resurrected Last edited by Morsul the Dark; 12-17-2012 at 04:31 PM. |
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#4 | |||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Also makes you wonder why didn't the goblins start following them out at that point too, since the Orcs apparently could, and the evening was falling... Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#5 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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One thing about those Stone Giants. It made me want to watch Trollhunter again.
I was reading something elsewhere earlier where someone asked "Did you spot Cumberbatch?" Well, I can't say that I did. When Radagast was at Dol Guldur I saw a wight (who I assumed was the Witch King of Angmar, later one of the Ringwraiths) and then there was the very creepy bit where the dark figure appeared out of the mists (quite unpleasant in 3D). It didn't look Cumberbatch shaped though, just vaguely man shaped. Have I missed something?
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Gordon's alive!
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#6 | |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 129
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#7 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,928
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Ok, so I've finally got round to watching it. Some thoughts:
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Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
Last edited by Eönwë; 12-21-2012 at 06:14 PM. |
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#8 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,448
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Secondly it is Balin
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Morsul the Resurrected |
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#9 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#10 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,448
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Morsul the Resurrected |
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#11 | ||||||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,512
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By the way, do you know what Galadriel said in the second telepathy exchange? I missed it completely. And her dress looks so fake when it makes this perfect circle around her, and then she turns round... and then she walks back and forth in it, showing off her trail of circular dress like a peacock... Ugh. [QUOTE=Pomegranate;677953]Some of the references to the LOTR trilogy. Not the one with Gandalf getting mad in Bag End, though, that was really bad.[QUOTE] Oh yeah, I missed than one in my list. I definitely agree. Quote:
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#12 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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However, I think it can still work, because like Legate, I really did like the internal dynamics of the White Council. As Legate said, we get Saruman's perspective, and strictly within a book context he is jealous of Gandalf right at the start. He also knows that Galadriel wanted Gandalf to head the Council, and this is probably where he gets to accusing them of conspiring against him. From, Saruman's perspective, completely true, but he's assuming an evil and personal intent by Gandalf and Galadriel to supplant him (much like Denethor's "Your left hand you would use as a shield against Mordor, but with your right you seek to supplant me." Denethor is completely correct, Gandalf seeks to restore Aragorn as the rightful King, but Denethor's perspective carries a negative connotation. The readers know Gandalf is making the legitimate and rightful decision in supporting Aragorn's claim to the throne of Gondor). Saruman's also got an arrogant and superior personality. He is the head of the Istari, he does have far more knowledge in matters concering Sauron and Ring-lore than Gandalf, and it is his designs which ultimately drive Sauron out of Dol Guldur. Other matters are below his standing, however. For example, there is a clear disdain towards Radagast, and my opinion is because Radagast's special knowledge of herbs and beasts is in Saruman's opinion, not knowledge that he deems "worthy." Same as how Saruman chides Gandalf for paying attention to Hobbits. Hobbits are below Saruman's respect, and he feels Gandalf could put his time and thought to far more important matters. From Gandalf's perspective, we know that he doesn't find out Saruman is a traitor until going to Isengard and being imprisoned there. He could not conceive Saruman was a turn-cloak, if he suspected it he said he would not have gone or he would have been more wary (The Council of Elrond). However, there are moments Gandalf does suspect, or at least, seemingly scratch his head at Saruman's decision making. He does have clear disagreements over how Saruman keeps dragging his feet over the question of Sauron's return to Dol Guldur. And at a later White Council meeting, when Saruman objects to attacking Dol Guldur, this is where he chides Gandalf for paying too much attention to hobbits and that perhaps the "halfling's leaf" he so often enjoys has slowed his mind. Gandalf responds in kind by blowing a smoke-ring symbolizing that Saruman's delving into Ring-lore is a dangerous slope: Quote:
In sum, I didn't like how McKellan delivered the line in FOTR, because it does come off as too trusty towards Saruman. However, still at that point, Gandalf did not know, nor seem to seriously suspect Saruman was a traitor. But I think Gandalf's perspective is one that goes from professional disagreement (thinks Dol Guldur should be attacked, Saruman disagrees. No more serious than perhaps an employee having a professional disagreement with his/her boss), to some inkling suspicion, and then without question once he goes to Orthanc in FOTR, Saruman's revealed his hand. Saruman sees it differently, being jealous of Gandalf and feeling Gandalf wants his position.
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Fenris Penguin
Last edited by Boromir88; 12-17-2012 at 09:09 PM. |
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#13 |
Drummer in the Deep
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Next Sunday A.D.
Posts: 2,145
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They're practically the same creature, right?
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But all the while I sit and think of times there were before
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