An Unexpected Journey, or the morning after

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Gosh, I had forgotten about Gandalf's healing powers. That was pretty ridiculous! Couldn't he have woken up himself, couldn't one of the Dwarves had some healing herbs, couldn't even, I don't know, the eagles have magically healed him or something? I mean, Gandalf's no doctor (when it comes to physical wounds) and I wish they'd kept it consistent.

In terms of film-consistency it was perhaps because they'd already shown Radagast heal a hedgehog, so Gandalf MUST be able to heal a dwarf! But it looked to me like the same thing they did with Pippin after he'd looked in the Palantir - Gandalf waking him up from a stupor.

[Pomegranate]

Whoa. I expected to come here and meet a lot of criticisms and negative feedback, based on what how I see the film and how most of the people seemed to be a lot more negative about it than I was in the first place, and now I think my opinion might be the one of the most negative ones. I definitely didn’t expect that. And given that, I think I’ll need to see the movie again before I can have a proper full picture of the film, right now it’s just bits that I liked a lot and bits that I didn’t like at all, and these not forming anything proper.

I’ll start with what I didn’t like, because it’s on the top of my head.

Azog, as many have said before, was useless and confusing. For a while I assumed it might actually work, when he appeared with the wargs and I thought “Hey, that makes sense! They’ll kill him here and thus will have an appropriate ending to the first movie, a separate plot, and we don’t have to watch him anymore in the next one!” …and then this didn’t happen. So he remained a useless and confusing side-plot.

More controversially, I didn’t like Bilbo. I think. I had high expectations, having seen Martin Freeman do great in all the trailer bits, and what we had? Instead of a confused and surprised but still keeping-his-good-manners–hobbit who invites Gandalf for tea and treats the dwarves to all his food because that’s how he’s been raised, we get a rude slam-the-door and don’t-eat-my-things person who keeps turning back at every possible corner, until the sudden change-of-mindset due to which he decides to save Thorin from Azog. And I feel like most of the changes PJ has made to the story were affecting his growth-story, making him do things that were done by others in the book (like the trolls) or things that don’t happen at all in the book (like the Azog-fight in the end, or his plan to leave in the mountain cave), which made it jump forth and back unlogically. He didn’t feel likeable, or believable. Which was sad, because the original story is, after all, essentially that - Bilbo’s growth story.

And another bit that I didn’t quite agree with that seems to be generally approved was the White Council. Especially Saruman. I mean, he’s supposed to be respected and “the wise” still here, right? And then he keeps going on about how he doesn’t like the dwarves not coming to talk to him and blahblah and is completely ignored by Gandalf and Galadriel who have their secret wee talk. No respect whatsoever. Which annoys me a great deal, because I feel like it’s contrary to PJ’s own works – in LOTR, Gandalf goes to ask for his help, talking about the greatest of his order and so on, and here he seems like a complaining child who wants to stop others from playing because he wasn’t involved in the first place.

These were my main complaints. And then there were a lot of brilliant bits.

Like the beginning with Dale and Erebor. Lovely, tell-tale-like. Beautiful, and a good way of explaining the background.

The dwarves. I love the personalities given to them, I love Thorin, I think the young dwarves are adorable and enough childish to not to be only the sexy-dwarves that they were labelled as before.

The already-familiar characters when they were younger and all was well. The cheery Elrond and his awkward hug with Gandalf, especially. I could include Gollum here as well, I loved the way they portrayed him.

The songs. I’m so glad they included the songs, and as has been mentioned before, the misty mountains-song is one of the most beautiful things in all PJ films I’ve seen.

Some of the references to the LOTR trilogy. Not the one with Gandalf getting mad in Bag End, though, that was really bad.

I really liked the rock giants. They were very impressive, and pretty, and I’ve not seen transformers so that impression didn’t hit me during the movie either.

[Morsul the Dark]

most are saying the bird poo and nest on Radagast's head was poor humor... if it was meant as humor it was indeed poor, for my part however I thought it shiwed more his compassion for living creatures. While extremely odd I found Radagast Quite well done, certainly his bravery in Dol guldor. The bunny sled while odd was used to good effect and not blatantly silly. My only complaint was the eye crossing, but only at one moment(I thought it was fine showing concentration on the incantaion) However when he puffs the pipe and goes crosseyed.... I always put the leaf down as more tobacco type of leaf not really in the narcotic family...

Bilbo was amazing very physical actor the way he walks and moves his neck were very good at explaining unspoken emotions.

Gandalf well done, of course. I think his scene on the bridge with the goblin king was great it didn't feel recycled to me I understand how people see it that way but I feel it was unique enough no great proclamations or wizard tricks.

Gandalf's line about the blue wizard's gave me a chuckle though I had thought they had been part of ousting Sauron from Dol Guldor. The out of the frying pan and into the fire line was misplaced I think, It should have been said in the trees when the fire was actually there(I always thought that was the reason for the title in the first place.

Gollum played out as he sould the riddles game getting progressively more tense... Bilbo's Pity scene was a tad drawn out for me however... While we're in the area, I thought Bilbo was knocked out after falling through the crack and happened to be missed by the goblins originally, in te movie he just sort of squats and is suddenly ignored...

Maybe Ihave to reread but I always thought of the stone giants as sort of metaphorical instead of real that was a bit shadow of collossus for me.

As for length the length was fine and pacing fine, if this was going to be two movies. Ending on the edge of Mirkwood leaves Well, Mirkwood Dale and the battle of 5 armies, not a lot of material for two more movies I know he's using the appendices butI don't know how much is Actually in there...

I'm glad the Rivendell elves didn't sing I'm glad Gandalf explained his relationship to the tooks without a baby scene.

My only complaint which is silly(as it has no actual bearing on the movie itself) is Balin's Ear horn, out of all the props that just for me was the most intrusive.

One last thought add my to the I thought Gandalf just woke Thorin up list... didn't seem very magiccy...(magiccy really?) to me

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And another bit that I didn’t quite agree with that seems to be generally approved was the White Council. Especially Saruman. I mean, he’s supposed to be respected and “the wise” still here, right? And then he keeps going on about how he doesn’t like the dwarves not coming to talk to him and blahblah and is completely ignored by Gandalf and Galadriel who have their secret wee talk. No respect whatsoever. Which annoys me a great deal, because I feel like it’s contrary to PJ’s own works – in LOTR, Gandalf goes to ask for his help, talking about the greatest of his order and so on, and here he seems like a complaining child who wants to stop others from playing because he wasn’t involved in the first place.

The last part is true, however in the context of the books, that's exactly how it was. There was all this dynamic within the ranks of the Council, Saruman opposed everything Gandalf had been a part of just for the sake of it already at the first Councils (being jealous even before they left Valinor - cf. the Unfinished Tales - and all that), and later (he mentions that by the end of LotR when the company meets him on their way back to Rivendell) suspected Galadriel and Gandalf of plotting against him (which was what I approved about the movie, because you can actually look at it from Saruman's perspective and see that he was right!). And as for disapproving the Dwarves, I think Saruman was a bit "racist", too - in the sense that his focus was on Men and how he thought the Elves are basically dead and gone, and so probably pretty much the Dwarves (him being a Maia of Aulë, I think he must have had a reason to ignore them - probably their lack of "activity on the surface").

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Gandalf's line about the blue wizard's gave me a chuckle though I had thought they had been part of ousting Sauron from Dol Guldor.

They could not have been, since they had been lost in the East already for quite a long time at that point. For almost two millenia, actually. (Which also makes it possible for me to imagine that Gandalf would really have forgotten their names at that point.)

The out of the frying pan and into the fire line was misplaced I think, It should have been said in the trees when the fire was actually there(I always thought that was the reason for the title in the first place.

That was actually another part I forgot to mention and which I did not like. It seemed too sudden and rushed. They just ran out of the mines, stopped for like the exchange of two sentences, and suddenly there were more Orcs coming, with no introduction, no change of place and time, nothing.

Also makes you wonder why didn't the goblins start following them out at that point too, since the Orcs apparently could, and the evening was falling...

Maybe Ihave to reread but I always thought of the stone giants as sort of metaphorical instead of real that was a bit shadow of collossus for me.

I always thought them real, but I imagined them as the classic giants, like, huge men, throwing boulders.

My only complaint which is silly(as it has no actual bearing on the movie itself) is Balin's Ear horn, out of all the props that just for me was the most intrusive.

That wasn't Balin (and to be honest, I have no idea who exactly it was, can somebody clarify? Originally I thought it was Oin, but then I think it turned out that Oin was somebody else, so I really am not sure).

[Lalwendë]

One thing about those Stone Giants. It made me want to watch Trollhunter again.

I was reading something elsewhere earlier where someone asked "Did you spot Cumberbatch?" Well, I can't say that I did. When Radagast was at Dol Guldur I saw a wight (who I assumed was the Witch King of Angmar, later one of the Ringwraiths) and then there was the very creepy bit where the dark figure appeared out of the mists (quite unpleasant in 3D). It didn't look Cumberbatch shaped though, just vaguely man shaped. Have I missed something?

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

One thing about those Stone Giants. It made me want to watch Trollhunter again.

I was reading something elsewhere earlier where someone asked "Did you spot Cumberbatch?" Well, I can't say that I did. When Radagast was at Dol Guldur I saw a wight (who I assumed was the Witch King of Angmar, later one of the Ringwraiths) and then there was the very creepy bit where the dark figure appeared out of the mists (quite unpleasant in 3D). It didn't look Cumberbatch shaped though, just vaguely man shaped. Have I missed something?

Honestly, my thought was that shadow looked a bit Cumberbatchy Anyway, I liked the moment of total darkness that followed. There was no doubt - we know, who...

[Eönwë]

Ok, so I've finally got round to watching it. Some thoughts:

• Martin Freeman as Bilbo is excellent.
• All the Smaug we saw was really good.
• I didn't actually find Radagast that bad. I mean, some characteristics were a little exaggerated, but I'm at least glad he felt like a wizard, though I found his "Rhosgobel rabbits" line a bit too cheesy for my liking.
• Speaking of that, the same goes for the big "NOOOOOOO!" as well as the some goblin fight when escaping the Great Goblin. That was nice in general, but some of the ease with which they just swiped them all off (with the long pole, for example), or Gandalf's rock seemed to overdo it a bit.
• I liked how they did Gollum. It shows how he's changed now that he's lost the ring. Though seeing him lose the ring makes takes away some of the mystery. And they cut out the fish riddle, which is one of my favourite.
• For the way the extended the story, I can understand why they added Azog. I do hope Dáin kills him at the Battle of the Five Armies, though, instead of them totally taking away his glory.
• I both liked and disliked the Great Goblin. Some of the things he did, like when he recognised the swords, were good, but I disliked him at others. And the way that Gandalf killed him was not something I liked.
• I liked that orcs were actually treated as conscious beings in some cases, but the problem now is that there's too much of a contrast between the leaders and the normal orcs.
• Seeing a more lighthearted Elrond was nice.
• I was at first annoyed at the timeline change, where Gandalf still hasn't been to Dol Guldur yet, but then I realised how many other flashbacks there already were with the Dwarves. It makes reasonable sense to not have that earlier. Though they'll probably never explain how Gandalf got the key now.
• So apparently Radagast has too many mushrooms? Saruman's just accusing everyone of using too many drugs at this point. Though it looks like Longbottom Leaf is pretty potent stuff.
• I'm used to them ignoring him, but I was still sad that they didn't at least have Círdan at the White Council. I also imagined at least a few more elves, though in my mind I always did have a round table in the middle for some reason. But it makes perfect sense for them not to include additional, unfamiliar characters, especially for such an important scene.
• I also didn't get why Elrond was so opposed to the quest. And while we later saw that it was because he had been taken in by the words of Saruman, I can't see why they made it so that they had to go against him at the time when they are supposed to have trusted his counsel. It was just a pointless addition, in my opinion.
• I think they rode too much on the back of LOTR. Sometimes it was useful to use parallels, as with the Eagles, but other times, such as the one-on-one battle near the end which uses basically the same music as Aragorn's Lurtz scene was too much. As well as Kiligolas.
• I liked Gandalf leaning on the fourth wall by not remembering the Blue Wizards' names because they're not in the books they're allowed to use (at least that's what I assumed it was). I also liked how they played with some of the book dialogue. But then some of the stuff they added was ridiculous. Like Gandalf's wise speech to Galadriel. Didn't sound Gandalfy at all.
• I was happy that they managed to include some of the songs.

[Morsul the Dark]

They could not have been, since they had been lost in the East already for quite a long time at that point. For almost two millenia, actually. (Which also makes it possible for me to imagine that Gandalf would really have forgotten their names at that point.)
That wasn't Balin (and to be honest, I have no idea who exactly it was, can somebody clarify? Originally I thought it was Oin, but then I think it turned out that Oin was somebody else, so I really am not sure).

First off ah yes you're right about the blue wizards whenever I hear White Council I just automatically include them...

Secondly it is Balin

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

First off ah yes you're right about the blue wizards whenever I hear White Council I just automatically include them...

Secondly it is Balin

Nope, no way. But ha, turns out I was right after all, and it's Oin (it's even written on the pic).

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Nope, no way. But ha, turns out I was right after all, and it's Oin (it's even written on the pic).

Indeed those two looked alike to me along with the other one, gloin maybe? Ah the treachury of seeing a film at midnight after an evening of only 3 hours sleep...

I bow to your correctness

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

And thank you for your compliments. I got laughed at by teenage girls in elven cloaks (not to mention the bus ride to the cinema), but it was naturally highly enjoyable.

Giggly girls in Elven cloaks can go eat bananas. What do they know of life or Dwarves?

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

If PJ doesn't botch it, the deaths of Fili and Kili
defending Thorin could be a highlight.

Right. But in the book we're not told much. The focus is on Thorin. I wager that in the film there will be focus on Kili as much as on Thorin.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes, that's how I saw it: touching him and therefore waking him up, nothing more. I can't say I 100% remember correctly, maybe somebody can correct me, but I think he did the sort of thing that first it looked as if he was, I don't know, doing something akin to what he would do if he was trying to close the eyes of a dead person (except that Thorin's eyes were already closed), sort of slid his palm over his face or somesuch. Maybe up to his neck. He basically looked like he could have been checking whether Thorin was still alive, or something.

Really? I thought he was more Jedi-ing. He sort of lowered his hand above Thorin's head and brought it over his face. Like I sometimes do to my siblings when they aren't listening to what I'm saying, but in a horizontal position.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And another bit that I didn’t quite agree with that seems to be generally approved was the White Council. Especially Saruman. I mean, he’s supposed to be respected and “the wise” still here, right? And then he keeps going on about how he doesn’t like the dwarves not coming to talk to him and blahblah and is completely ignored by Gandalf and Galadriel who have their secret wee talk. No respect whatsoever. Which annoys me a great deal, because I feel like it’s contrary to PJ’s own works – in LOTR, Gandalf goes to ask for his help, talking about the greatest of his order and so on, and here he seems like a complaining child who wants to stop others from playing because he wasn’t involved in the first place.

Oh noes, we don't likes that part either. Not one bit.

By the way, do you know what Galadriel said in the second telepathy exchange? I missed it completely.

And her dress looks so fake when it makes this perfect circle around her, and then she turns round... and then she walks back and forth in it, showing off her trail of circular dress like a peacock... Ugh.

[QUOTE=Pomegranate;677953]Some of the references to the LOTR trilogy. Not the one with Gandalf getting mad in Bag End, though, that was really bad.[QUOTE]

Oh yeah, I missed than one in my list. I definitely agree.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That wasn't Balin (and to be honest, I have no idea who exactly it was, can somebody clarify? Originally I thought it was Oin, but then I think it turned out that Oin was somebody else, so I really am not sure).

Right. Balin was the little one with the big white beard, no? The one that looks like Santa's elf?

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I was reading something elsewhere earlier where someone asked "Did you spot Cumberbatch?" Well, I can't say that I did. When Radagast was at Dol Guldur I saw a wight (who I assumed was the Witch King of Angmar, later one of the Ringwraiths) and then there was the very creepy bit where the dark figure appeared out of the mists (quite unpleasant in 3D). It didn't look Cumberbatch shaped though, just vaguely man shaped. Have I missed something?

I actually really didn't like that they gave the Necromancer a quite distinct shape. But then the book idea of Sauron having a body before he's in Mordor doesn't sit well with me either. I don't even remember when he's supposed to regain his body.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And another bit that I didn’t quite agree with that seems to be generally approved was the White Council. Especially Saruman. I mean, he’s supposed to be respected and “the wise” still here, right? And then he keeps going on about how he doesn’t like the dwarves not coming to talk to him and blahblah and is completely ignored by Gandalf and Galadriel who have their secret wee talk. No respect whatsoever. Which annoys me a great deal, because I feel like it’s contrary to PJ’s own works – in LOTR, Gandalf goes to ask for his help, talking about the greatest of his order and so on, and here he seems like a complaining child who wants to stop others from playing because he wasn’t involved in the first place.

I wasn't happy with Ian McKellan's delivery of that line in the FOTR movie ("I must see the head of my order. He is both wise and powerful. Trust me, Frodo, he'll know what to do."), because it definitely came off too trusting towards Saruman. And then in particular, it didn't seem to fit well with the White Council scene in The Hobbit, because if I remember it correctly, Gandalf shoots Saruman a suspicious look, and then also the meeting with Galadriel.

However, I think it can still work, because like Legate, I really did like the internal dynamics of the White Council.

As Legate said, we get Saruman's perspective, and strictly within a book context he is jealous of Gandalf right at the start. He also knows that Galadriel wanted Gandalf to head the Council, and this is probably where he gets to accusing them of conspiring against him. From, Saruman's perspective, completely true, but he's assuming an evil and personal intent by Gandalf and Galadriel to supplant him (much like Denethor's "Your left hand you would use as a shield against Mordor, but with your right you seek to supplant me." Denethor is completely correct, Gandalf seeks to restore Aragorn as the rightful King, but Denethor's perspective carries a negative connotation. The readers know Gandalf is making the legitimate and rightful decision in supporting Aragorn's claim to the throne of Gondor).

Saruman's also got an arrogant and superior personality. He is the head of the Istari, he does have far more knowledge in matters concering Sauron and Ring-lore than Gandalf, and it is his designs which ultimately drive Sauron out of Dol Guldur. Other matters are below his standing, however. For example, there is a clear disdain towards Radagast, and my opinion is because Radagast's special knowledge of herbs and beasts is in Saruman's opinion, not knowledge that he deems "worthy." Same as how Saruman chides Gandalf for paying attention to Hobbits. Hobbits are below Saruman's respect, and he feels Gandalf could put his time and thought to far more important matters.

From Gandalf's perspective, we know that he doesn't find out Saruman is a traitor until going to Isengard and being imprisoned there. He could not conceive Saruman was a turn-cloak, if he suspected it he said he would not have gone or he would have been more wary (The Council of Elrond). However, there are moments Gandalf does suspect, or at least, seemingly scratch his head at Saruman's decision making. He does have clear disagreements over how Saruman keeps dragging his feet over the question of Sauron's return to Dol Guldur. And at a later White Council meeting, when Saruman objects to attacking Dol Guldur, this is where he chides Gandalf for paying too much attention to hobbits and that perhaps the "halfling's leaf" he so often enjoys has slowed his mind. Gandalf responds in kind by blowing a smoke-ring symbolizing that Saruman's delving into Ring-lore is a dangerous slope:

Now because of his dislike and fear, in the later days Saruman avoided Gandalf, and they seldom met, except at the assemblies of the White Council. It was at the great Council held in 2851 that the "Halflings' leaf" was first spoken of, and the matter was noted with amusement at the time, though it was afterwards remembered in a different light. The Council met in Rivendell, and Gandalf sat apart, silent, but smoking prodigiously (a thing he had never done before on such an occasion), while Saruman spoke against him, and urged that contrary to Gandalf's advice Dol Guldur should not yet be molested. Both the silence and the smoke seemed greatly to annoy Saruman, and before the Council dispersed be said to Gandalf: "When weighty matters are in debate, Mithrandir, I wonder a little that you should play with your toys of fire and smoke, while others are in earnest speech."

But Gandalf laughed, and replied: "You would not wonder if you used this herb yourself. You might find that smoke blown out cleared your mind of shadows within. Anyway, it gives patience, to listen to error without anger. But it is not one of my toys. It is an art of the Little People away in the West: merry and worthy folk, though not of much account, perhaps, in your high policies."

Saruman was little appeased by this answer (for he hated mockery, however gentle), and he said then coldly: "You jest, Lord Mithrandir, as is your way. I know well enough that you have become a curious explorer of the small: weeds, wild things and childish folk. Your time is your own to spend, if you have nothing worthier to do; and your friends you may make as you please. But to me the days are too dark for wanderers' tales, and I have no time for the simples of peasants."

Gandalf did not laugh again; and he did not answer, but looking keenly at Saruman he drew on his pipe and sent out a great ring of smoke with many smaller rings that followed it. Then he put up his hand, as if to grasp them, and they vanished. With that he got up and left Saruman without another word; but Saruman stood for some time silent, and his face was dark with doubt and displeasure.~Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring

Sorry for the lengthy quote there.

In sum, I didn't like how McKellan delivered the line in FOTR, because it does come off as too trusty towards Saruman. However, still at that point, Gandalf did not know, nor seem to seriously suspect Saruman was a traitor. But I think Gandalf's perspective is one that goes from professional disagreement (thinks Dol Guldur should be attacked, Saruman disagrees. No more serious than perhaps an employee having a professional disagreement with his/her boss), to some inkling suspicion, and then without question once he goes to Orthanc in FOTR, Saruman's revealed his hand. Saruman sees it differently, being jealous of Gandalf and feeling Gandalf wants his position.

[Oddwen]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

In terms of film-consistency it was perhaps because they'd already shown Radagast heal a hedgehog, so Gandalf MUST be able to heal a dwarf!

They're practically the same creature, right?