Arwen vs. Galadriel

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I do not disagree. Both have great ancestors, but Arwen has the greater ones. Both do great deeds, but Galadriel does the greater ones. How do you balance it out? You can't. It's apples and oranges.

In my opinion nobility is about character and not just great deeds. I would say Arwen was a more pure character than Galadriel. In the same way that Tuor could be said to be more pure than Turin, even if he was lesser in power. Galadriel was contemplating stealing the ring from Frodo and her temptation was greater than Aragorn or Gandalf, who too were offered the ring.

That's beside the point. They won the war - after an Age of doing... what? Sitting at home, carving jewels, watching the stars... Life in Valinor is good when you are weary and seek rest. But what about when you are still young, vigorous, ambitious? When you don't want to just take and enjoy what the Valar have provided, but want to build yourself? Enjoyment wears off together with appreciation.

They won against a more powerful army, than the rebels faced. The desire to leave and travel ME was not inherently a bad choice. If they had petitioned the Valar reasonably (like Galadriel does in some accounts) then the Valar would have granted their request. It was the manner of the their rebelling, which led to the curse.

Alright. Sure. It's failure. But it makes a character more interesting to read about. I love Galadriel (who has fallen and risen again) as a character more than I do Arwen, who has neither fallen nor risen. She not only does little in the physical sense, but her character is pretty stagnant, other than perhaps her decision to become mortal.

I agree from a literary point of view a fallen character is more interesting. Tolkien himself says this. He goes further; here are his thoughts on the matter in a letter.

There cannot be any 'story' without a fall....So proceeding the elves have a fall, before their 'history' can become storial.

Ingwe may not be the most exciting character, but I dare say he is a better elf than Feanor.

And likewise, I love Morwen more than both of them put together, even though her fall was the hardest and grandest - perhaps I love her more because her fall was the worst.

Morwen is my favourite female character and only second to Turin in my favourite characters, but she was flawed too. If Turin and her, had been less proud then their lives very possibly may have been better, but perhaps not as great. That being said Turin and Morwen were both too proud. They were both great, but their pride was their greatest fault.

We don't know much of Arwen's character. We need deeds to judge character. Arwen does very few things that are her choice (I mean, she can be beautiful, but it's not really her credit); she visits Lorien. She weaves a banner. There's the look she gave Frodo in Rivendell that he always remembered afterwards, as well as giving him the necklace. And she became mortal. Coincidence or not, but many of her deeds originate in this choice. It's the most important thing to me in judging her character.

I disagree. We know Arwen's character, but we don't know much of her deeds. Her character is similar to Luthien. Her giving Frodo the necklace was not a coincidence. She is the first one to notice the ill effects that the ring has on Frodo. She realises that healing is impossible for him in ME and arranges for him to go the Tol Eressea.

Elrond distances himself from the Noldor and would rather be Thingol's heir? Where did you get this from? I can't seem to recall any such, but I may have forgotten this bit since my last read.

Distanced himself is too strong I feel. It was my mistake to use that word. It's better to say he favoured his Sindar descent over the Noldor and considered himself Thingol's heir.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

However, the point still stands that when it came to a confrontation based on innate power alone, Elrond had the greatest chance of victory. It is Elrond who is given the most powerful ring. It is Elrond, who holds out against Sauron's siege too. Melian was a Maia on par and perhaps greater than Sauron. Luthien was an elf greater than Sauron. Six thousand years and over 60 generations down the line, this same ancestry is still giving Aragorn great healing powers.

I beg to differ. I see Galadriel as taking Melian's place in the TA when it comes to a confrontation with the main villain. Compare:

Who knows now the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who had been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, a dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, and perceiving more deeds and purposes of his enemies that even the wisest of them feared, save Melian the Queen? To her often the thought of Morgoth reached out, and there was foiled.

--The Sil, of Turin Turambar (an almost exact copy of this passage is found in COH, The Land of Bow and Helm)

"But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy. I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see my thought. But still the door is closed!"

--Galadriel, The Mirror of Galadriel, FOTR.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

In my opinion nobility is about character and not just great deeds. I would say Arwen was a more pure character than Galadriel. In the same way that Tuor could be said to be more pure than Turin, even if he was lesser in power. Galadriel was contemplating stealing the ring from Frodo and her temptation was greater than Aragorn or Gandalf, who too were offered the ring.

Can you tell a clean plate from an unused plate? It's one thing to go through trials and come out unscathed (which realistically never happens, near every character has some flaw), and it's another to not go through any trials at all and be nice and shiny. If I understand you right, you respect the ones that do not show any wear-and-tear of usage on them, even if they are clean. But I respect Galadriel more, because she is more flawed, perhaps, and has had many more trials than Arwen - and still she remains the clean plate, though with a chipped edge or a dent.

As for the deeds, once again - the refusal for temptation is the deed. You count it as a flaw. I count it as a refusal to succumb to a flaw. In your eyes it makes one lesser - because she was tempted, and allowed herself to be tempted badly. In my eyes, Galadriel's refusal to temptation makes her greater - because she had the nettle to resist the temptation. The greater the temptation, the greater the strength put into resisting it. If you don't have a strong temptation, you did not display sich strength of mind and will.

You cannot say that Arwen is better than Galadriel because Arwen was not tempted so badly by the Ring, because she was not tempted at all. You could compare Galadriel to Gandalf, to Frodo, Sam, Gollum, Boromir, even Aragorn to some extent, but not Arwen. Not in this case.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

They won against a more powerful army, than the rebels faced. The desire to leave and travel ME was not inherently a bad choice. If they had petitioned the Valar reasonably (like Galadriel does in some accounts) then the Valar would have granted their request. It was the manner of the their rebelling, which led to the curse.

Neither of which is what I'm talking about. I am not reciting The Sil; I am trying to explain the desire of many of the Exiles. To build a kingdom of their own, and make their own, without the Valar handing them everything. Like you want to make your own food instead of just heating up frozen foods. It is not about what they ended up doing - fighting a war, losing a war, winning a war, - it's about what they wanted to do before it all went rolling downhill.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Ingwe may not be the most exciting character, but I dare say he is a better elf than Feanor.

Certainly, Ingwe doesn't start a World War. But then, as you said, he's quite boring, and he gives me no emotion whatsoever. I cannot respect him for being good, because there wasn't much of an option (leaving with the Noldor does not count, since the Vanyar were not affected by Morgoth's lies in the first place). He's an unused plate. You can't judge a plate without using it. On the contrary, I'm sure everyone will find some respect (at least!) for the likes of Finrod and Fingolfin, who, despite their brothers and neighbours and everything still try to be good. Even if they fail at it (which is debatable, but beside the point). I respect Fingolfin, who basically committed suicide, more than I respect Ingwe.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Morwen is my favourite female character and only second to Turin in my favourite characters, but she was flawed too. If Turin and her, had been less proud then their lives very possibly may have been better, but perhaps not as great. That being said Turin and Morwen were both too proud. They were both great, but their pride was their greatest fault.

Very true. Their main flaws were pride and deafness/blindness to truth and good advice. But they try to be good. Even if they fail utterly (which just adds to the beauty of the story). Unlike Ingwe, who doesn't even have to try.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I disagree. We know Arwen's character, but we don't know much of her deeds. Her character is similar to Luthien. Her giving Frodo the necklace was not a coincidence. She is the first one to notice the ill effects that the ring has on Frodo. She realises that healing is impossible for him in ME and arranges for him to go the Tol Eressea.

Firstly, in my opinion, we know only as much about her character as her deeds and a few descriptions allow us to perceive. She looked like Luthien, probably inherited some of her power/wisdom/insight/foresight, possibly inherited some of her character. But I cannot say she had the same character, at least based on the few actions that we do know. I cannot see Luthien sitting at home weaving a banner when Beren is off to god knows where trying to throw down a being who is a head higher than everyone else, metaphorically speaking, of course. Just like I can't see Arwen galloping off to the Paths of the Dead to...? Dunno. Help out somehow.

From the fact that she gives Frodo the necklace, I see that Arwen has wisdom and foresight. Good qualities, but precious little when it comes to character. Any average elf of the TA has this, though perhaps is lesser measure. Her metaphorical giving her place to Frodo is only possible because she chose mortality. It is dependant on her main deed, the choice between Aragorn and life.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I beg to differ. I see Galadriel as taking Melian's place in the TA when it comes to a confrontation with the main villain. Compare:



--The Sil, of Turin Turambar (an almost exact copy of this passage is found in COH, The Land of Bow and Helm)



--Galadriel, The Mirror of Galadriel, FOTR.

The same applies to Elrond and Rivendell. The difference is Melian was up against Morgoth, Galadriel could not keep out Sauron. Without Numenor all of eastern Elvish Kingdoms would have been destroyed. Galadriel would not hope to take on the host of Sauron. Luthien actually DID take on the host of Morgoth.

Can you tell a clean plate from an unused plate? It's one thing to go through trials and come out unscathed (which realistically never happens, near every character has some flaw), and it's another to not go through any trials at all and be nice and shiny. If I understand you right, you respect the ones that do not show any wear-and-tear of usage on them, even if they are clean. But I respect Galadriel more, because she is more flawed, perhaps, and has had many more trials than Arwen - and still she remains the clean plate, though with a chipped edge or a dent.

It's better to reject the temptation at the first test. This is usually better for you and all your friends. Compare the lives of the Noldor to the lives of the Vanyar.

As for the deeds, once again - the refusal for temptation is the deed. You count it as a flaw. I count it as a refusal to succumb to a flaw. In your eyes it makes one lesser - because she was tempted, and allowed herself to be tempted badly. In my eyes, Galadriel's refusal to temptation makes her greater - because she had the nettle to resist the temptation. The greater the temptation, the greater the strength put into resisting it. If you don't have a strong temptation, you did not display sich strength of mind and will.

It's better to be so pure that you are never tempted in the first place.

You cannot say that Arwen is better than Galadriel because Arwen was not tempted so badly by the Ring, because she was not tempted at all. You could compare Galadriel to Gandalf, to Frodo, Sam, Gollum, Boromir, even Aragorn to some extent, but not Arwen. Not in this case.

We do not know if Arwen was tempted or not. However, she did struggle more than Elrond, Aragorn and Gandalf. I forget that Elrond too was offered the ring at the Council. In the end the deed is all that matters, but it does show her personality was more tainted by lust for power than the others.

Neither of which is what I'm talking about. I am not reciting The Sil; I am trying to explain the desire of many of the Exiles. To build a kingdom of their own, and make their own, without the Valar handing them everything. Like you want to make your own food instead of just heating up frozen foods. It is not about what they ended up doing - fighting a war, losing a war, winning a war, - it's about what they wanted to do before it all went rolling downhill.

They were deluded and were corrupted by Morgoth, because Manwe is the King of Arda not just Aman. Where ever they tried to go they could not escape the authority of the Valar. The Teleri worked hard on their ships, the Vanyar on poetry and singing. The Noldor's reasons for returning were mostly due to the lies of Morgoth.

Certainly, Ingwe doesn't start a World War. But then, as you said, he's quite boring, and he gives me no emotion whatsoever. I cannot respect him for being good, because there wasn't much of an option (leaving with the Noldor does not count, since the Vanyar were not affected by Morgoth's lies in the first place). He's an unused plate. You can't judge a plate without using it. On the contrary, I'm sure everyone will find some respect (at least!) for the likes of Finrod and Fingolfin, who, despite their brothers and neighbours and everything still try to be good. Even if they fail at it (which is debatable, but beside the point). I respect Fingolfin, who basically committed suicide, more than I respect Ingwe.

You are confusing being a boring person, with a boring story. It seems strange to me that you cannot respect someone for being good. We have very different views. Being good is harder and better than being bad.

The Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth just like the Noldor, but they resisted it and did not fall under the shadow. This is to their credit. Again it seems odd that you respect Fingolfin for leading his people to destruction over a wiser ruler who kept his people safe. The Noldor leave to fight Morgoth having no clue about his true power for mainly selfish reasons. The Vanyar leave fully aware of Morgoth's might for selfless reasons. I respect the Vanyar far more than the Noldor on this. We will never see eye to eye on this matter.

Very true. Their main flaws were pride and deafness/blindness to truth and good advice. But they try to be good. Even if they fail utterly (which just adds to the beauty of the story). Unlike Ingwe, who doesn't even have to try.

What? Everyone has to strive to be good. Ingwe just made the right decisions so did not suffer. His people were untroubled and had happy lives. He was the High King of all elves.

Firstly, in my opinion, we know only as much about her character as her deeds and a few descriptions allow us to perceive. She looked like Luthien, probably inherited some of her power/wisdom/insight/foresight, possibly inherited some of her character. But I cannot say she had the same character, at least based on the few actions that we do know. I cannot see Luthien sitting at home weaving a banner when Beren is off to god knows where trying to throw down a being who is a head higher than everyone else, metaphorically speaking, of course. Just like I can't see Arwen galloping off to the Paths of the Dead to...? Dunno. Help out somehow.

You canot say she has the same character as Luthien, but Tolkien can and he does. As the author of the story he can gives us definitive statements. Like when he tells us Sam, Frodo and Bilbo still eventually die in Tol Eressea. He tells us outright Luthien and Arwen had a similar character. Luthien too sat at home and respected the authority of Thingol. It was only when things became desperate for Beren and he was days away from death did she interfere. Arwen on the other hand did not have Luthien's power or the need to rush out and save Aragorn. She helped him as she could and had faith in him.

From the fact that she gives Frodo the necklace, I see that Arwen has wisdom and foresight. Good qualities, but precious little when it comes to character. Any average elf of the TA has this, though perhaps is lesser measure. Her metaphorical giving her place to Frodo is only possible because she chose mortality. It is dependant on her main deed, the choice between Aragorn and life.

If any average had this wisdom then why was she the first to notice? Why do the elves accept her as their queen? What do you mean she metaphorically gives Frodo her place? Arwen arranging Frodo's place on the boat has nothing to do with her being mortal. Or how do you explain Gimli, Sam and Bilbo all gaining a place. She was not being literal.

[elbenprincess]

The same applies to Elrond and Rivendell. The difference is Melian was up against Morgoth, Galadriel could not keep out Sauron. Without Numenor all of eastern Elvish Kingdoms would have been destroyed. Galadriel would not hope to take on the host of Sauron. Luthien actually DID take on the host of Morgoth.

It is stated that Galadriel

Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur; but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

Nothing similiar is said regarding Elrond, later in the passage she resebles Luthien in her deed to destroy Dol Guldur. So I would agree that Galadriel somewhat takes the place of Melian, her defence of Lorien is similar to that of Doriath, just to a lesser degree. And that she could see Saurosn thought and still her thougts are hidden from him.

It is Elrond who is given the most powerful ring

Elrond was not even the original bearer, the three were given to the tree greatest of the Eldar (of this time) Galadriel, Cirdan and Gil Galad.

It's better to reject the temptation at the first test. This is usually better for you and all your friends. Compare the lives of the Noldor to the lives of the Vanyar.

The more powerful you are, the more tempted you are, the ring wanted the strongest master to come again to his real master.
Besides Galadriel has good reason to be tempted, more than Elrond, she was really in a dilemma, we must assume that she thought of her self as still being banned and allowing the ring to be destroyed could probably destroy her last home, for before the temptation she wouldn´t know that she could return to Valinor.
Elrond wouldn´t have this pressure, if things would went terribly wrong, he could take Arwen and flee to Aman, Galadriel never wold have the possibility, being banned.

Galadriel was contemplating to steel the ring

She never planned to take the ring, she was tempted, but she didn´t ask Frodo to look in der mirror, just to get the ring.

Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve

So even before Frodo entered Lorien she decided to refuse the ring.

When I compare the Noldor to the Vanya, the Vanya sure had the more comfortable life, but the Noldor were the heroes, matter of histories, legnds and songs, they made the more important deeds, they had a fullfilled life, the Vanyar were always in their golden cage, they never learned to take care of themselves. I wouldn´t want the life of a Vanyar, that wouldn´t satisfy me. I can understand the Noldor, they wanted to see what they were able to achieve alone, without the help of the Valar, of course there is a risk, but they accepted that. Individual fulfilment was very important to them and for that they had to leave Aman at least for a time.

If they had petitioned the Valar reasonably (like Galadriel does in some accounts) then the Valar would have granted their request. It was the manner of the their rebelling, which led to the curse.

Could they really be sure that they would granted their wish, there is no accord that anyone if leaving Aman to ME except the Istati and Glorfindel. Maybe some were afraid that they never would get the opportunity.

And again, WHY does the Noldor have to ask the Valar to leave? Aren´t they free? That´s really not their business where the Eldar are going and why must they give a good reason, it´s their life and they can do with it what they want.

And if the Valar later would allow them to leave, why not allow them at this point to leave, does it really matter if they leave 100 years earlier or 100 years later?
It seems to me they were overcharged.

and she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwe, and the ban on all emigration

They really had no idea what they were doing. Something was going against their wishes and so they had to punish everyody and not just the Noldor who deserves the punishment (The kinslayers and oathtakers).

The Noldor leave to fight Morgoth having no clue about his true power for mainly selfish reasons.

I don´t think the majority wanted to fight Morgoth, I think the most, like Galadriel just wanted to see new lands. Isn´t it somewhere noted that the Noldor long before Morgoth influenced them had the desire to go to ME, but that it just came to the surface during Feanors rebellion?

They were deluded and were corrupted by Morgoth, because Manwe is the King of Arda not just Aman. Where ever they tried to go they could not escape the authority of the Valar. The Teleri worked hard on their ships, the Vanyar on poetry and singing. The Noldor's reasons for returning were mostly due to the lies of Morgoth.

That is the problem, "where ever they tried to go they could not escape the authority of the Valar" isn´t that terrible? It´s like a big jail, or like you would never be able to move away from your parents, cause they force you to stay in a little vilage.

I don´t see them being corrupted by Morgoth just because they wanted to leave Aman, they had dreams. It´s true, Arda belonged to the Valar but I see no crime in the need to be a little distanced from them, because you want to make your own experiences, that doesn´t mean that the Eldar who went into exil didn´t love the Valar anymore. Maybe the Valar thought that the Noldor don´t love them anymore, but Galadriel for example, and certaily other Noldor, still revered the Valar very much.

[elbenprincess]

Another thing that occured to me is Galadriels pardon. What was the condition? Did she have to repent going to ME?

We also know that ban, per Letter # 297, was lifted because she refused the Ring

Her prayer was granted - but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. So at the end we see her taking ship.

So she was able to return because of that, was there more?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Another thing that occured to me is Galadriels pardon. What was the condition? Did she have to repent going to ME?
So she was able to return because of that, was there more?

No she was banned for her part in being one of the leaders in the rebellion. Tolkien later on was considering changing her significant role in leading the Noldor, but she was always going to under ban for disobeying the Noldor.

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

It is stated that Galadriel

Nothing similiar is said regarding Elrond, later in the passage she resebles Luthien in her deed to destroy Dol Guldur. So I would agree that Galadriel somewhat takes the place of Melian, her defence of Lorien is similar to that of Doriath, just to a lesser degree. And that she could see Saurosn thought and still her thougts are hidden from him.

No the same thing is said about Rivendell.

What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien. But have they the strength, have we the strength to withstand the enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last; when all else is overthrown?
'I have not the strength.' said Elron; 'neither have they'

Yes her defense is impressive, but how is it more impressive than Elrond's defense of Imladris? Elrond without the help of his ring defended Rivendell against Sauron in person with his entire army at his back. This was Sauron using the One Ring.

It is Elrond, who takes out all 9 wraiths at the same time when they attempt to enter his realm.

The more powerful you are, the more tempted you are, the ring wanted the strongest master to come again to his real master.
Besides Galadriel has good reason to be tempted, more than Elrond, she was really in a dilemma, we must assume that she thought of her self as still being banned and allowing the ring to be destroyed could probably destroy her last home, for before the temptation she wouldn´t know that she could return to Valinor.
Elrond wouldn´t have this pressure, if things would went terribly wrong, he could take Arwen and flee to Aman, Galadriel never wold have the possibility, being banned.

Who told you the more powerful the more tempted you are? That is rubbish. Do you think Gollum was more powerful than Faramir? Or Boromir more powerful than Aragorn? The weakness is in the individual not their power. Of course with more innate power you can actually accomplish more.

So did everyone else just like Boromir. You defense of Galadriel is becoming to desperate. Everyone had much to lose and much to gain by using the Ring and if we are honest none more so than Aragorn of Gandalf.

She never planned to take the ring, she was tempted, but she didn´t ask Frodo to look in der mirror, just to get the ring.

No, but she was considering stealing it from Frodo if he passed through her land.

Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest?

She does reject this train of thought, but at the same time she greatly desire Frodo to offer her the ring. Characters with pride without majesty do not.

So even before Frodo entered Lorien she decided to refuse the ring.

No she was unsure of what she would do until the moment itself happened.

When I compare the Noldor to the Vanya, the Vanya sure had the more comfortable life, but the Noldor were the heroes, matter of histories, legnds and songs, they made the more important deeds, they had a fullfilled life, the Vanyar were always in their golden cage, they never learned to take care of themselves. I wouldn´t want the life of a Vanyar, that wouldn´t satisfy me. I can understand the Noldor, they wanted to see what they were able to achieve alone, without the help of the Valar, of course there is a risk, but they accepted that. Individual fulfilment was very important to them and for that they had to leave Aman at least for a time.

You keep forgetting that the Vanyar were the ones, who actually defeated Morgoth.

There is more to life than just fighting and wars. It's a shame that more people would not be happy with living in a paradise with their friends and family. The Noldor were power hungry and influenced by Morgoth. In the end it cost them and they were forced to return to Aman anyway.

Could they really be sure that they would granted their wish, there is no accord that anyone if leaving Aman to ME except the Istati and Glorfindel. Maybe some were afraid that they never would get the opportunity.

The Valar had said several times the elves were free to come and go as they pleased.

And again, WHY does the Noldor have to ask the Valar to leave? Aren´t they free? That´s really not their business where the Eldar are going and why must they give a good reason, it´s their life and they can do with it what they want.

Manwe is King of Arda. It is his business. He is the king and rightful ruler. He is put there by Illuvatar and understands HIS will better than anyone else. That sort of reasoning is how Melkor became Morgoth.

And if the Valar later would allow them to leave, why not allow them at this point to leave, does it really matter if they leave 100 years earlier or 100 years later?
It seems to me they were overcharged.

It matters in the manner. Leaving in toe with a mad man, who had broken the Valars laws and sworn a destructive oath was there choice. They then doubled their misery by committing murder before they went.

They really had no idea what they were doing. Something was going against their wishes and so they had to punish everyody and not just the Noldor who deserves the punishment (The kinslayers and oathtakers).

No the Noldor did many crimes and were rightly punished. They had a choice to reject the actions of Feanor and his people, but instead they followed him.

I don´t think the majority wanted to fight Morgoth, I think the most, like Galadriel just wanted to see new lands. Isn´t it somewhere noted that the Noldor long before Morgoth influenced them had the desire to go to ME, but that it just came to the surface during Feanors rebellion?

Tolkien is clear that there is a shadow over them. This first came about when Morgoth started spreading his lies. If they were wiser like the Vanyar or less proud like the Teleri they would have rejected him. Pride like always was the downfall for the Noldor.

That is the problem, "where ever they tried to go they could not escape the authority of the Valar" isn´t that terrible? It´s like a big jail, or like you would never be able to move away from your parents, cause they force you to stay in a little vilage.

Manwe is the rightful ruler. It takes humility to accept that there are people in the world with a higher rank. Morgoth did not like this and the Noldor followed. Eru made it that way. Your words were the same lies that Morgoth told them.

If thraldom it be you cannot escape it: for Manwe is king of Arda and not Aman only.

I don´t see them being corrupted by Morgoth just because they wanted to leave Aman, they had dreams. It´s true, Arda belonged to the Valar but I see no crime in the need to be a little distanced from them, because you want to make your own experiences, that doesn´t mean that the Eldar who went into exil didn´t love the Valar anymore. Maybe the Valar thought that the Noldor don´t love them anymore, but Galadriel for example, and certaily other Noldor, still revered the Valar very much.

The whole world is under Manwe. As Mandos said you cannot escape his kingship. Tolkien outright states they were corrupted by Morgoth and repeated his lies. They may have loved the Valr, but they broke their laws and had to make their own bed.

Nor did the Valar punish them in any undue way. They refused them help and banned them from Aman. If the Valar had not shown mercy then the Noldor would have been wiped out by Morgoth and quickly returned to Aman to sit in the halls of Mandos. The ones, who remained would become a rustic people and slowly fade away. The Valar were more forgiving than they could have been. In the end it is the Noldor, who are desperate to come back and constantly pine for Aman.

[elbenprincess]

Yes her defense is impressive, but how is it more impressive than Elrond's defense of Imladris? Elrond without the help of his ring defended Rivendell against Sauron in person with his entire army at his back. This was Sauron using the One Ring.

It is Elrond, who takes out all 9 wraiths at the same time when they attempt to enter his realm.

Yes, but Elrond defended Rivendell with an army but not with his innate power.

Where it is said that he took out all 9 wraiths at the same time? That would be really impressive.
I know that the Witch King would not dare to face the white ring (Galadriel with nenya) and therefore went arond Lorien.

"But the power of the White Ring he would not defy, nor enter yet into Lórien."

Who told you the more powerful the more tempted you are? That is rubbish.

Yes, I agree, I said wrong, I think she maybe was the most in need for it, or she felt that she had the most need, Lorien was very dear to her and it surely hurt her to know that it would fade in the end. And therefore she was so tempted.

Everyone had much to lose and much to gain by using the Ring and if we are honest none more so than Aragorn of Gandalf.

With Aragon I agree but why had Gandalf more to loose than Galadriel? I wouldn´t say it´s the case, if they would fail Gandalf wold just return to Aman, I doubt the Valar would punish him, it would not be after all his fault.

Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest?

She does reject this train of thought, but at the same time she greatly desire Frodo to offer her the ring. Characters with pride without majesty do not.

I rather see Galadriel here being sarcastic. I don´t think she ever seriously considered doing that to FrodoI admit I have problems understanding what Galadriel means in that passage but I would interpret it this way:

„Would that not be nice proof of the Ring’s power if I took it from my guest by force or cunning?“

"Characters with pride without majesty do not" What do you mean? Galadriel, because she was proud was tempted, Arwen would not because she was majestic? I rather think Arwen wasn´t tempted, cause she never had the ambition of her grandmother and wasn´t interested in ruling people.

You keep forgetting that the Vanyar were the ones, who actually defeated Morgoth.

Yes, but without the Noldor it might have been too late to save Elves and Men, they made the grondwork and hindered Morgoth to expand his might.

It's a shame that more people would not be happy with living in a paradise with their friends and family. The Noldor were power hungry and influenced by Morgoth. In the end it cost them and they were forced to return to Aman anyway.

It´s nice for some people, but other people just want more in life, they want have something they can call their own, for which they worked hard for, went through many dangers and can finally be proud of it. The kings were surely very proud of their kingdoms and it is a shame that all was destroyed. In Aman, everything is there from the beginning, you don´t have to work for it. It´s not that the Noldor didn´t want to life in peace with their family, they just wanted to have it in ME and not be dependent on the Valar.

Calling them power hungry is too harsh, it sounds as if they come to ME and suppress every elf they meet and force them to accept them as rulers, I rather think that they wanted to prove what they are able to set up, without the help of the Valar. It´s just a shame that the Valar reacted this way, OK, they went the same time Feanor went, but most didn´t supported him but still they all are treated equally, even those who are guiltless in the kinslaying, that is unfair.

Yes, in the end they all wanted to return to Aman, but then they never said that they wanted to stay in ME forever. That Valar should just have let them make their experiences and after that welcome them back (what they later of course did) IMHO the ban was unnecessary, it seems to me they felt insulted only because they didn´t followed their orders. It is their land and the elves have to follow their rules, but they are not their property.

The Valar had said several times the elves were free to come and go as they pleased.

OK, but why not at the time it actually happened? Only because the hour is evil? OK, problem of the elves, not theirs.

Manwe is King of Arda. It is his business. He is the king and rightful ruler. He is put there by Illuvatar and understands HIS will better than anyone else. That sort of reasoning is how Melkor became Morgoth.

That´s unfair, mortals don´t need to ask when they want to move away. Only because Nolor were looking for adventure and wanted a tiny bit of the land to rule does´t mean one of them becomes the next Morgoth. I see that ruling wish as trying to see what you are able to, if you can built something of your own. For us, in our society, the need to realize ones full potential is quite usual. So why not for the elves?

No the Noldor did many crimes and were rightly punished. They had a choice to reject the actions of Feanor and his people, but instead they followed him.

But there were the ones who were not guilty, so why should they return and not all followed Feanor, he may be the one who set all in motion, but most followed Fingolfin and the other princes, only because you go in the same direction doesn´t mean you follow the person.

Tolkien is clear that there is a shadow over them. This first came about when Morgoth started spreading his lies. If they were wiser like the Vanyar or less proud like the Teleri they would have rejected him. Pride like always was the downfall for the Noldor.

You can not blame only Morgoth, the Noldor had something in them what make them restless and in need for more knowlege, I´m sure they would have left at one point anyway, even without Morgoth or Feanor. Maybe it would have taken longer, for in one version Galadriel seems to be the first who had the wish to go to ME, sure there were others who wanted to see ME.

She did indeed wish to depart from Valinor and to go into the wide world of Middle-earth for the exercise of her talents. ... This desire of Galadriel's was, it seems, know to Manwë, and he had not forbidden her; but nor had she been given formal leave to depart. Pondering what she might do Galadriel's thoughts turned to the ships of the Teleri, and she went for a while to dwell with her mother's kindred in Alqualondë

I doubt Galadriel was the one thinking about it.

Manwe is the rightful ruler. It takes humility to accept that there are people in the world with a higher rank. Morgoth did not like this and the Noldor followed. Eru made it that way. Your words were the same lies that Morgoth told them.

I doubt Galadriel had a authority problem, she just had an other idea in how she wants to live her life.

I know she

felt confined in the tutelage of Aman

but not because the Valar were the lords and ladies but becase there was nothing what she could achieve on her own, so she left.

If they were wiser like the Vanyar or less proud like the Teleri they would have rejected him. Pride like always was the downfall for the Noldor

People who question the circumstances (the Noldor) are not as easy to handle like the ones who are yes-men and yes-women (the vanyar). Pride is not always bad, it depends on what you do with your pride, Thingol became proud and so was killed, Galadriel was proud too, but she didn´t fell as hard as her kin, but still she is described as extemely proud. You can be proud but still do the right thing. Her kin had the problem that they were proud but they lacked the tactical insight Galadriel had. Fingolfin went to a suicide mission and arcieved nothing with it (OK I know he was wounded for all eternity but that doesn´t lead to his downfall) and Turgon rejected Ulmos advise.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Yes, but Elrond defended Rivendell with an army but not with his innate power.

Where it is said that he took out all 9 wraiths at the same time? That would be really impressive.
I know that the Witch King would not dare to face the white ring (Galadriel with nenya) and therefore went arond Lorien.

Galadriel too had an army at her back and it was bigger than the one at Rivendell. Elrond controlling the must be down to his power. Rivendell also had a spell making it virtually impossible for enemies to find.

Yes, I agree, I said wrong, I think she maybe was the most in need for it, or she felt that she had the most need, Lorien was very dear to her and it surely hurt her to know that it would fade in the end. And therefore she was so tempted.

That's not true and you know it. The entire world and everyone good in it was dear to Gandalf. Where as Aragorn had one chance to return his people to their former glory or lose it and Arwen too.

With Aragon I agree but why had Gandalf more to loose than Galadriel? I wouldn´t say it´s the case, if they would fail Gandalf wold just return to Aman, I doubt the Valar would punish him, it would not be after all his fault.

It's because Gandalf cared about everything good in ME and wanted to save it all, not just one place as he tells Denethor. It was not only down to duty, but love as well.

I rather see Galadriel here being sarcastic. I don´t think she ever seriously considered doing that to FrodoI admit I have problems understanding what Galadriel means in that passage but I would interpret it this way:

„Would that not be nice proof of the Ring’s power if I took it from my guest by force or cunning?“

Yes she was joking about it, but at the same time it was something she had considered.

"Characters with pride without majesty do not" What do you mean? Galadriel, because she was proud was tempted, Arwen would not because she was majestic? I rather think Arwen wasn´t tempted, cause she never had the ambition of her grandmother and wasn´t interested in ruling people.

Sorry I meant to say "characters with majesty without pride". Arwen had ambitions to marry Aragorn, which depended on him regaining the throne. Again don't you find it ironic that Arwen rules a greater area than Galadriel.

Yes, but without the Noldor it might have been too late to save Elves and Men, they made the grondwork and hindered Morgoth to expand his might.

The Sindar were safe in Doriath for a while and Men had rejected Eru; a worse crime than the Noldor had committed.

It´s nice for some people, but other people just want more in life, they want have something they can call their own, for which they worked hard for, went through many dangers and can finally be proud of it. The kings were surely very proud of their kingdoms and it is a shame that all was destroyed. In Aman, everything is there from the beginning, you don´t have to work for it. It´s not that the Noldor didn´t want to life in peace with their family, they just wanted to have it in ME and not be dependent on the Valar.

That's rubbish. The Noldor worked hard and built Tiron with their hands. Things were not just there from the beginning. Many of them regretted leaving their great works behind. It was due to pride and arrogance. They wanted to be the greatest people around, rather than the lowest as they were in Valinor.

Calling them power hungry is too harsh, it sounds as if they come to ME and suppress every elf they meet and force them to accept them as rulers, I rather think that they wanted to prove what they are able to set up, without the help of the Valar. It´s just a shame that the Valar reacted this way, OK, they went the same time Feanor went, but most didn´t supported him but still they all are treated equally, even those who are guiltless in the kinslaying, that is unfair.

They were power hungry and immediately came to ME and started usurping land that belonged to Thingol, who was king of all Beleriand. If they wanted to show what they could do against Morogth they got what they wanted. If they wanted realms of their own without the power of the Valar they got it. They all died except Galadriel and all of their realms were destroyed. That's what they got without the Valar.

Yes, in the end they all wanted to return to Aman, but then they never said that they wanted to stay in ME forever. That Valar should just have let them make their experiences and after that welcome them back (what they later of course did) IMHO the ban was unnecessary, it seems to me they felt insulted only because they didn´t followed their orders. It is their land and the elves have to follow their rules, but they are not their property.

The whole world is under their rule. You seem to not want to accept this. Manwe is king of Arda too. If you reject the council of the Valar, break their rules in their own home then why should they allow you back? Just like with giving men Numenor the Valar were merciful.

OK, but why not at the time it actually happened? Only because the hour is evil? OK, problem of the elves, not theirs.

Yes and this is why they were punished. They not only left at an evil time, but under a banned leader and the majority committed even great crimes.

That´s unfair, mortals don´t need to ask when they want to move away. Only because Nolor were looking for adventure and wanted a tiny bit of the land to rule does´t mean one of them becomes the next Morgoth. I see that ruling wish as trying to see what you are able to, if you can built something of your own. For us, in our society, the need to realize ones full potential is quite usual. So why not for the elves?

Again that is not true. The greatest works of the Noldor were performed in Valinor. That reasoning is how Morgoth came about. The Noldor did not except Manwe as ruler of the world. That apart they insulted the Valar in their own homes.

But there were the ones who were not guilty, so why should they return and not all followed Feanor, he may be the one who set all in motion, but most followed Fingolfin and the other princes, only because you go in the same direction doesn´t mean you follow the person.

Yes it does. They may have followed Fingolfin, but urged on by Feanor and due to the lies of Morgoth.

You can not blame only Morgoth, the Noldor had something in them what make them restless and in need for more knowlege, I´m sure they would have left at one point anyway, even without Morgoth or Feanor. Maybe it would have taken longer, for in one version Galadriel seems to be the first who had the wish to go to ME, sure there were others who wanted to see ME.

Leaving was fine, but it's the reason they wanted to leave. It was selfish and greedy. Similar to when the Numenoreans started returning to ME and conquering lands. It was the first sign that they were beginning to fall.
[QUOTE]
I doubt Galadriel was the one thinking about it.

I doubt Galadriel had a authority problem, she just had an other idea in how she wants to live her life.

I know she but not because the Valar were the lords and ladies but becase there was nothing what she could achieve on her own, so she left.
[QUOTE]
Pride mastered Galadriel and the other Noldor. They knew they had acted foolishly when they followed Feanor. They knew it was the wrong time Galadriel included, but they could not conquer their pride. That was their failing.

I repeat that it is no coincidence than the only descendant of Finwe, without the intense pride of others, Finarfin is able to return.

Her(Galadriel) pride was unwilling to return a defeated suppliant for pardon

People who question the circumstances (the Noldor) are not as easy to handle like the ones who are yes-men and yes-women (the vanyar). Pride is not always bad, it depends on what you do with your pride, Thingol became proud and so was killed, Galadriel was proud too, but she didn´t fell as hard as her kin, but still she is described as extemely proud. You can be proud but still do the right thing. Her kin had the problem that they were proud but they lacked the tactical insight Galadriel had. Fingolfin went to a suicide mission and arcieved nothing with it (OK I know he was wounded for all eternity but that doesn´t lead to his downfall) and Turgon rejected Ulmos advise.

Those are the same words that that Morgoth used. Pride always leads to a fall. The ones, who are humble always end up better. Finarfin faired better than his brothers, Tuor faired better than Turin, Aragorn faired better than Isildur, Faramir better than Boromir.

In the case of Galadriel we are told pride made her do the wrong thing. Hence she was banned.

It is not Galadriel alone, I constantly reference all the Princes/Ladies of the Noldor except Finarfin, because they all had the same weakness and were consequently all died (except Galadriel) who lost everything.

[elbenprincess]

Galadriel too had an army at her back and it was bigger than the one at Rivendell. Elrond controlling the must be down to his power. Rivendell also had a spell making it virtually impossible for enemies to find.

Yes she had an army, but it´s explicitly stated that

besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself.

It seems Galadriel the the main reason Lorien was safe.

I always thught Rivendell was safe because it was located in a valley, I never read something about a spell making Rivendell safe.

That's not true and you know it. The entire world and everyone good in it was dear to Gandalf. Where as Aragorn had one chance to return his people to their former glory or lose it and Arwen too.

Yes, it may be sure that Gandalf and Aragon would be in greater need and therefore greater tempted, but maybe Galadriel felt that she was in the greatest need, that would be subjective thinking on her part, it´s dependent on the character and how despaired one person is, maybe Galadriel is at this point the most despaired. (besides, the entire world and everyone good in it was dear to her too)
I mean, look at her lament

wherein the stars tremble in the song of her voice, holy and queenly. Who now shall refill the cup for me?
For now the Kindler, Varda, the Queen of the Stars, from Mount Everwhite has uplifted her hands like clouds, and all paths are drowned deep in shadow;

or

"I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home."

That´s just my take on it, I know Gollum was probably not despaired, but you can´t compare them, she had her own reasonings to be so tempted and I don´t think it was because of her power longing, cause at this stage I don´t think she longed for power that much any more.

Again don't you find it ironic that Arwen rules a greater area than Galadriel.

Yes it is ironic, but that´s not something she achieved herself, like I said she was just lcky to marry Aragon.

Men had rejected Eru

How that? I should read the Silm again

They were power hungry and immediately came to ME and started usurping land that belonged to Thingol, who was king of all Beleriand.

Yo situate it in such a negative light, Thingol was apparently OK with it, even giving Finrod a tip and unless I´m wrong, they all respected him as their hight king, didn´t they? Ulmo supported that too, helping Fingon.

The whole world is under their rule. You seem to not want to accept this. Manwe is king of Arda too. If you reject the council of the Valar, break their rules in their own home then why should they allow you back? Just like with giving men Numenor the Valar were merciful.

So there is the rule not to leave Aman without permission?!?! If that´s the case than the Noldor really never were free. Of course they are free, I know that, your comment just don´t fit, if you leave out the kinslayers, then they just rejected their council to stay and that justifies a ban?!?! So the Eldar of Valinor are expected always to agree with the Valar in all matters and are never to confess their own opinion?!?!
Just for exemple, there is an elf on Tol Eressea (who has done no crime) and the Valar, or one Valar commands them to come to Valimar and then the elf is not in the mood for that (for whatever reason), would the Valar punish him or her?
I think I don´t get the relationship between the Valar and elves, how they life with each other.

That's rubbish. The Noldor worked hard and built Tiron with their hands. Things were not just there from the beginning.

But for the younger Noldor (like Galadriel) it was, I beleive Tirion was compleated, so she had not the opportunity to be a part of the people who achieved something in their life.

Again that is not true. The greatest works of the Noldor were performed in Valinor.

I disagree, besides the Silmaril, the greatest works of the Noldor were their kingdoms in ME. IMHO

Leaving was fine, but it's the reason they wanted to leave. It was selfish and greedy.

I don´t think wanting a own realm is greedy and selfish, the elves of Lorien for example were happy to have a leader again.
Was Turgon selfish or greedy in building Gondolin? It was admired by many. Common elves would be happy that someone is coming who takes the reins.
You can´t work against an enemy if you aren´t organized, sure there was Thingol, but if there are too many people you need more then one king, or why are there 3 or 4 elven kings in aman? (Would Thingol be King in Aman again?)

And the princes never suppressed anyone, the common Noldor who followed obviously were content being under their rule.

In the case of Galadriel we are told pride made her do the wrong thing. Hence she was banned.

She was even banned in a version where she wasn´t proud and was not with the Noldor and never saw Namo declaring the doom.

but for the misfortune that before she set out the revolt of Fëonor broke out, and she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwe, and the ban on all emigration."

Her(Galadriel) pride was unwilling to return a defeated suppliant for pardon

So you say that she wanted to return but was too proud to do so? I read it as she was too proud to return but didn´t wanted to return anyway.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The same applies to Elrond and Rivendell. The difference is Melian was up against Morgoth, Galadriel could not keep out Sauron. Without Numenor all of eastern Elvish Kingdoms would have been destroyed. Galadriel would not hope to take on the host of Sauron. Luthien actually DID take on the host of Morgoth.

But Arwen is not Luthien, no matter how similar they are.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It's better to reject the temptation at the first test. This is usually better for you and all your friends. Compare the lives of the Noldor to the lives of the Vanyar.

Aye, but in order to reject it you have to be tempted.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It's better to be so pure that you are never tempted in the first place.

Which is pretty much impossible. Even Sam was tempted, and with his love for Master Frodo he's near the purest being found in LOTR that had anything to do directly with the Ring.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

We do not know if Arwen was tempted or not. However, she did struggle more than Elrond, Aragorn and Gandalf. I forget that Elrond too was offered the ring at the Council. In the end the deed is all that matters, but it does show her personality was more tainted by lust for power than the others.

...and that her will thus was stronger than all the others, if she was able to qithstand such a strong temptation. Where are you getting at?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth just like the Noldor, but they resisted it and did not fall under the shadow. This is to their credit. Again it seems odd that you respect Fingolfin for leading his people to destruction over a wiser ruler who kept his people safe. The Noldor leave to fight Morgoth having no clue about his true power for mainly selfish reasons. The Vanyar leave fully aware of Morgoth's might for selfless reasons. I respect the Vanyar far more than the Noldor on this. We will never see eye to eye on this matter.

What? Everyone has to strive to be good. Ingwe just made the right decisions so did not suffer. His people were untroubled and had happy lives. He was the High King of all elves.

In my opinion, being (hypothetically) perfect in a perfect society/environment is much easier than preserving even a strand of goodness in the midst of moral chaos and destruction. This applies to all characters. But for Fingolfin vs Ingwe the respect matter is more that just that. For all that Ingwe is the High King and a good boy, he is not great. Fingolfin's greatness trumps Ingwe's with no question. And so does Feanor's - if he's not the most flawed Elf of all times I'll eat my socks, but he is also the greatest, and in my eyes that is cause for respect.

However, most of the above is beside the point, and, as you said, we won't agree anyways, so I'm willing to drop the subject.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

If any average had this wisdom then why was she the first to notice? Why do the elves accept her as their queen? What do you mean she metaphorically gives Frodo her place? Arwen arranging Frodo's place on the boat has nothing to do with her being mortal. Or how do you explain Gimli, Sam and Bilbo all gaining a place. She was not being literal.

Don't tell me you don't think Elves aren't wise. Arwen is special, I do not deny that - quite the contrary, - but I do not think she is special in this way. The place on the boat was certainly metaphorical, but it was not hers in the full meaning to grant to Frodo. She could take it or refuse it, but you cannot realy give it to someone else. Just like Frodo could not actually give away the rest of his life to Sam, although he says he does - once again, metaphorically.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No the same thing is said about Rivendell.

What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien. But have they the strength, have we the strength to withstand the enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last; when all else is overthrown?
'I have not the strength.' said Elron; 'neither have they'

Yes her defense is impressive, but how is it more impressive than Elrond's defense of Imladris? Elrond without the help of his ring defended Rivendell against Sauron in person with his entire army at his back. This was Sauron using the One Ring.

It is Elrond, who takes out all 9 wraiths at the same time when they attempt to enter his realm.

Elrond defends his realm in a very physical way. Yes, he has fighters like Glorfindel who have a "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) side to them, but still, the defense remains physical. Once, we see Elrond collaborating with nature to wipe out the Nazgul in a flood. But that was once again physical - he did not defeat them in a battle of wills, he merely swept them away.

Galadriel does more and goes beyond the physical - she actually goes and reads Sauron's mind and counters his plans before they are even put in action. Even Aragorn does more, by withstanding Sauron via Palantir.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Who told you the more powerful the more tempted you are? That is rubbish. Do you think Gollum was more powerful than Faramir? Or Boromir more powerful than Aragorn? The weakness is in the individual not their power. Of course with more innate power you can actually accomplish more.

Umm, Tolkien tells us that? Gandalf says so in The Shadow of the Past. The Ring has greater power over the more powerful people, and the more powerful you are without the Ring the worse you will be with it.

Boromir is not more powerful than Aragorn, certainly. The thing is that Aragorn is stronger than the temptation (regardless of its magnitude) and Boromir isn't.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

There is more to life than just fighting and wars. It's a shame that more people would not be happy with living in a paradise with their friends and family. The Noldor were power hungry and influenced by Morgoth. In the end it cost them and they were forced to return to Aman anyway.

Life in a paradise soon gets boring with nothing to do if everything is handed down. Most of the Noldor did not even imagine how far they will slide down upon taking their course. They did not want to spend an Age pointlessly fighting Morgoth. Some did not even want to fight him at all.

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I rather see Galadriel here being sarcastic. I don´t think she ever seriously considered doing that to FrodoI admit I have problems understanding what Galadriel means in that passage but I would interpret it this way:

„Would that not be nice proof of the Ring’s power if I took it from my guest by force or cunning?“

I would disagree here. I think that Galadriel really did contemplate about the Ring, perhaps even the taking of it by force. And she did make her decision then and there with Frodo and Sam present. But there is nothing bad about it.

I do not like going Biblical, but I can't for the moment think of a better example. Adam and Eve were good people in Eden. Was it hard? Not really, because it was the only thing available. In essence, they could not have been otherwise until the apple story. Do you admire them for being good when they just stepped into the world? It's like saying you admire a baby for being small.

Some many years later, though, it is much harder for people to be good, because they are not anymore living in paradise; they are surrounded by less than good things. And now you really do appreciate good people and good deeds. It's not to be taken for granted.

However, there are no people that are so pure they don't even consider it. They can't not consider it, because they live in it. You might say "He did not even think of betrayal", but what that really says is "He thought of it and rejected it immediately without further consideration". It is impossible to be absolutely pure. And if a person considers the wrong thing, but still does right, that speaks of perhaps a more tainted but a stronger person, because it requires a stronger will to overcome a greater moral dilemma and still do right.

Moral of the story, firstly, this relates to why I respect the tempted and undefeated Galadriel more than the untempted Arwen. Secondly, that everyone who had a connection to the Ring was tempted in some fashion, even if it is not written.


I still have some posts to read from this thread, but I have to go now. I think that we are just saying the same thing over and over again, and we won't even agree on it because we're looking at it from opposite sides. I propose this: I will not repeat what I've said before because we're just standing on different streets and it's not getting anyone anywhere. At least this way I hope we will be able to bring the discussion back to the original question.

I must say, however, it's a pleasure to debate such things here with you!