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#1 | ||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
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There cannot be any 'story' without a fall....So proceeding the elves have a fall, before their 'history' can become storial. Ingwe may not be the most exciting character, but I dare say he is a better elf than Feanor. Quote:
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#2 | ||||||||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,492
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As for the deeds, once again - the refusal for temptation is the deed. You count it as a flaw. I count it as a refusal to succumb to a flaw. In your eyes it makes one lesser - because she was tempted, and allowed herself to be tempted badly. In my eyes, Galadriel's refusal to temptation makes her greater - because she had the nettle to resist the temptation. The greater the temptation, the greater the strength put into resisting it. If you don't have a strong temptation, you did not display sich strength of mind and will. You cannot say that Arwen is better than Galadriel because Arwen was not tempted so badly by the Ring, because she was not tempted at all. You could compare Galadriel to Gandalf, to Frodo, Sam, Gollum, Boromir, even Aragorn to some extent, but not Arwen. Not in this case. Quote:
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From the fact that she gives Frodo the necklace, I see that Arwen has wisdom and foresight. Good qualities, but precious little when it comes to character. Any average elf of the TA has this, though perhaps is lesser measure. Her metaphorical giving her place to Frodo is only possible because she chose mortality. It is dependant on her main deed, the choice between Aragorn and life.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#3 | |||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
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The Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth just like the Noldor, but they resisted it and did not fall under the shadow. This is to their credit. Again it seems odd that you respect Fingolfin for leading his people to destruction over a wiser ruler who kept his people safe. The Noldor leave to fight Morgoth having no clue about his true power for mainly selfish reasons. The Vanyar leave fully aware of Morgoth's might for selfless reasons. I respect the Vanyar far more than the Noldor on this. We will never see eye to eye on this matter. Quote:
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Last edited by cellurdur; 12-11-2012 at 10:20 PM. |
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#4 | ||||||||||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 69
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Besides Galadriel has good reason to be tempted, more than Elrond, she was really in a dilemma, we must assume that she thought of her self as still being banned and allowing the ring to be destroyed could probably destroy her last home, for before the temptation she wouldnīt know that she could return to Valinor. Elrond wouldnīt have this pressure, if things would went terribly wrong, he could take Arwen and flee to Aman, Galadriel never wold have the possibility, being banned. Quote:
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When I compare the Noldor to the Vanya, the Vanya sure had the more comfortable life, but the Noldor were the heroes, matter of histories, legnds and songs, they made the more important deeds, they had a fullfilled life, the Vanyar were always in their golden cage, they never learned to take care of themselves. I wouldnīt want the life of a Vanyar, that wouldnīt satisfy me. I can understand the Noldor, they wanted to see what they were able to achieve alone, without the help of the Valar, of course there is a risk, but they accepted that. Individual fulfilment was very important to them and for that they had to leave Aman at least for a time. Quote:
And again, WHY does the Noldor have to ask the Valar to leave? Arenīt they free? Thatīs really not their business where the Eldar are going and why must they give a good reason, itīs their life and they can do with it what they want. And if the Valar later would allow them to leave, why not allow them at this point to leave, does it really matter if they leave 100 years earlier or 100 years later? It seems to me they were overcharged. Quote:
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I donīt see them being corrupted by Morgoth just because they wanted to leave Aman, they had dreams. Itīs true, Arda belonged to the Valar but I see no crime in the need to be a little distanced from them, because you want to make your own experiences, that doesnīt mean that the Eldar who went into exil didnīt love the Valar anymore. Maybe the Valar thought that the Noldor donīt love them anymore, but Galadriel for example, and certaily other Noldor, still revered the Valar very much. Last edited by elbenprincess; 12-12-2012 at 08:01 AM. |
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#5 | ||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 69
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Another thing that occured to me is Galadriels pardon. What was the condition? Did she have to repent going to ME?
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Last edited by elbenprincess; 12-12-2012 at 07:27 AM. |
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#6 | |||||||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
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What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien. But have they the strength, have we the strength to withstand the enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last; when all else is overthrown? 'I have not the strength.' said Elron; 'neither have they' Yes her defense is impressive, but how is it more impressive than Elrond's defense of Imladris? Elrond without the help of his ring defended Rivendell against Sauron in person with his entire army at his back. This was Sauron using the One Ring. It is Elrond, who takes out all 9 wraiths at the same time when they attempt to enter his realm. Quote:
So did everyone else just like Boromir. You defense of Galadriel is becoming to desperate. Everyone had much to lose and much to gain by using the Ring and if we are honest none more so than Aragorn of Gandalf. Quote:
Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest? She does reject this train of thought, but at the same time she greatly desire Frodo to offer her the ring. Characters with pride without majesty do not. Quote:
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There is more to life than just fighting and wars. It's a shame that more people would not be happy with living in a paradise with their friends and family. The Noldor were power hungry and influenced by Morgoth. In the end it cost them and they were forced to return to Aman anyway. Quote:
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If thraldom it be you cannot escape it: for Manwe is king of Arda and not Aman only. Quote:
Nor did the Valar punish them in any undue way. They refused them help and banned them from Aman. If the Valar had not shown mercy then the Noldor would have been wiped out by Morgoth and quickly returned to Aman to sit in the halls of Mandos. The ones, who remained would become a rustic people and slowly fade away. The Valar were more forgiving than they could have been. In the end it is the Noldor, who are desperate to come back and constantly pine for Aman. |
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#7 | |||||||||||||||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 69
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Where it is said that he took out all 9 wraiths at the same time? That would be really impressive. I know that the Witch King would not dare to face the white ring (Galadriel with nenya) and therefore went arond Lorien. Quote:
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„Would that not be nice proof of the Ring’s power if I took it from my guest by force or cunning?“ "Characters with pride without majesty do not" What do you mean? Galadriel, because she was proud was tempted, Arwen would not because she was majestic? I rather think Arwen wasnīt tempted, cause she never had the ambition of her grandmother and wasnīt interested in ruling people. Quote:
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Calling them power hungry is too harsh, it sounds as if they come to ME and suppress every elf they meet and force them to accept them as rulers, I rather think that they wanted to prove what they are able to set up, without the help of the Valar. Itīs just a shame that the Valar reacted this way, OK, they went the same time Feanor went, but most didnīt supported him but still they all are treated equally, even those who are guiltless in the kinslaying, that is unfair. Yes, in the end they all wanted to return to Aman, but then they never said that they wanted to stay in ME forever. That Valar should just have let them make their experiences and after that welcome them back (what they later of course did) IMHO the ban was unnecessary, it seems to me they felt insulted only because they didnīt followed their orders. It is their land and the elves have to follow their rules, but they are not their property. Quote:
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Last edited by elbenprincess; 12-12-2012 at 02:51 PM. |
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#8 | ||||||||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
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[QUOTE] I doubt Galadriel was the one thinking about it. I doubt Galadriel had a authority problem, she just had an other idea in how she wants to live her life. I know she but not because the Valar were the lords and ladies but becase there was nothing what she could achieve on her own, so she left. [QUOTE] Pride mastered Galadriel and the other Noldor. They knew they had acted foolishly when they followed Feanor. They knew it was the wrong time Galadriel included, but they could not conquer their pride. That was their failing. I repeat that it is no coincidence than the only descendant of Finwe, without the intense pride of others, Finarfin is able to return. Her(Galadriel) pride was unwilling to return a defeated suppliant for pardon Quote:
In the case of Galadriel we are told pride made her do the wrong thing. Hence she was banned. It is not Galadriel alone, I constantly reference all the Princes/Ladies of the Noldor except Finarfin, because they all had the same weakness and were consequently all died (except Galadriel) who lost everything. |
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#9 | |||||||||||||||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 69
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I always thught Rivendell was safe because it was located in a valley, I never read something about a spell making Rivendell safe. Quote:
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Just for exemple, there is an elf on Tol Eressea (who has done no crime) and the Valar, or one Valar commands them to come to Valimar and then the elf is not in the mood for that (for whatever reason), would the Valar punish him or her? I think I donīt get the relationship between the Valar and elves, how they life with each other. Quote:
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Was Turgon selfish or greedy in building Gondolin? It was admired by many. Common elves would be happy that someone is coming who takes the reins. You canīt work against an enemy if you arenīt organized, sure there was Thingol, but if there are too many people you need more then one king, or why are there 3 or 4 elven kings in aman? (Would Thingol be King in Aman again?) And the princes never suppressed anyone, the common Noldor who followed obviously were content being under their rule. Quote:
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Last edited by elbenprincess; 12-13-2012 at 06:55 AM. |
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#10 | ||||||||||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,492
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However, most of the above is beside the point, and, as you said, we won't agree anyways, so I'm willing to drop the subject. Quote:
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Galadriel does more and goes beyond the physical - she actually goes and reads Sauron's mind and counters his plans before they are even put in action. Even Aragorn does more, by withstanding Sauron via Palantir. Quote:
Boromir is not more powerful than Aragorn, certainly. The thing is that Aragorn is stronger than the temptation (regardless of its magnitude) and Boromir isn't. Quote:
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I do not like going Biblical, but I can't for the moment think of a better example. Adam and Eve were good people in Eden. Was it hard? Not really, because it was the only thing available. In essence, they could not have been otherwise until the apple story. Do you admire them for being good when they just stepped into the world? It's like saying you admire a baby for being small. Some many years later, though, it is much harder for people to be good, because they are not anymore living in paradise; they are surrounded by less than good things. And now you really do appreciate good people and good deeds. It's not to be taken for granted. However, there are no people that are so pure they don't even consider it. They can't not consider it, because they live in it. You might say "He did not even think of betrayal", but what that really says is "He thought of it and rejected it immediately without further consideration". It is impossible to be absolutely pure. And if a person considers the wrong thing, but still does right, that speaks of perhaps a more tainted but a stronger person, because it requires a stronger will to overcome a greater moral dilemma and still do right. Moral of the story, firstly, this relates to why I respect the tempted and undefeated Galadriel more than the untempted Arwen. Secondly, that everyone who had a connection to the Ring was tempted in some fashion, even if it is not written. I still have some posts to read from this thread, but I have to go now. I think that we are just saying the same thing over and over again, and we won't even agree on it because we're looking at it from opposite sides. I propose this: I will not repeat what I've said before because we're just standing on different streets and it's not getting anyone anywhere. At least this way I hope we will be able to bring the discussion back to the original question. I must say, however, it's a pleasure to debate such things here with you!
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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