Would the Half-Elven vanish if they wore an elven ring?

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

My only disagreement with you here, Puddleglum, is that though Luthien chose to be mortal, in my eyes she never became a (wo)Man. Half-Elven can chose between Elves and Men because they have the blood of both. Luthien is a Half Elf... Half Maia. So in my opinion she was allowed to leave the circles of the world with Beren, but she could never be one of the Edain.

I wonder if this is only a semantic difference (my apologies if I am misunderstanding your meaning, it's not intentional). Silmarillion seems clear that she become mortal "Then she would become mortal, and subject to a second death". Whether than means she became specifically Edain (or did you mean to say Atani?) or not seems less important to the question of whether her fate as being part of the larger classification of "mortal" (having the gift of Illuvatar vis-a-vis departing Ea forever) had implications for her child, Dior.

The general rule that seemed to be followed was that, if both parents were Mortal (had the gift to depart), then their children would have that gift as well. If one or both parents did NOT have that gift, the matter was uncertain (at least until Manwe made his ruling).

Elwing's brothers are, indeed (I think) a case we are never told about. Maybe, since they came to Valinor via death (ie, straight to Mandos), Mandos treated them as having the gift and they departed without the matter coming to Manwe.

In Elwing's case, she had broken the Ban of the Valar by coming, in the flesh, to the Blessed realm (with Earendil). That sort of forced the issue and Manwe had to make a decision both formal and public.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

I wonder if this is only a semantic difference (my apologies if I am misunderstanding your meaning, it's not intentional). Silmarillion seems clear that she become mortal "Then she would become mortal, and subject to a second death". Whether than means she became specifically Edain (or did you mean to say Atani?) or not seems less important to the question of whether her fate as being part of the larger classification of "mortal" (having the gift of Illuvatar vis-a-vis departing Ea forever) had implications for her child, Dior.

Luthien remained an Elf. Humans cannot use the kind of magic Luthien throws around. She alone became a mortal elf. Luthien would not suddenly start getting sick, be unable to walk on snow, lose her eyesight etc because she was mortal. The only change was inwhat her fea would do after death.

The general rule that seemed to be followed was that, if both parents were Mortal (had the gift to depart), then their children would have that gift as well. If one or both parents did NOT have that gift, the matter was uncertain (at least until Manwe made his ruling).

No there was no general rule. It had not been decided what to do with the Half-elven until Manwe made his ruling. Then it was decided that ALL people with a drop of mortal blood would be mortal, unless an exception was made.

Elwing's brothers are, indeed (I think) a case we are never told about. Maybe, since they came to Valinor via death (ie, straight to Mandos), Mandos treated them as having the gift and they departed without the matter coming to Manwe.

In Elwing's case, she had broken the Ban of the Valar by coming, in the flesh, to the Blessed realm (with Earendil). That sort of forced the issue and Manwe had to make a decision both formal and public.

Mandos is not going to let such an important decision go without discussing it with Manwe. In the case of Earendil he was in a bad place, because as Noldor or as a man of the HOuse of Hador he had broke the ban either way. So Earendil coming to Valinor did not really force their hand to decide, because they both punished and rewarded him either way.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Luthien remained an Elf. Humans cannot use the kind of magic Luthien throws around. She alone became a mortal elf. Luthien would not suddenly start getting sick, be unable to walk on snow, lose her eyesight etc because she was mortal. The only change was inwhat her fea would do after death.

What magic did Luthien "throw around" after returning from Mandos? They returned to Doriath, said good bye, and went to Ossiriand. Thereafter about all said is that she had the Silmaril until she and Beren died.

About all I can think of is the statement that she "healed the winter of Thingol with the touch of her hand." But it's only speculation she "used magic" (or even elvish art) to do so. The winter is described as "Then a winter, as it were the hoar age of mortal Men, fell upon Thingol." That could mean little more than that Thingol was so distraught by the death of Luthien that he began to waste away, grow haggard and agunt, unable to walk, losing his vigor, on his way to dieing himself (from grief, perhaps). And, if so, the touch of her hand was just that - a simple act of love and compassion that showed Thingol his daughter was alive and with him again - and that healed his winter.

On what do you base your claims about her not getting sick, or not walking on snow, or eyesight or etc after her return?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No there was no general rule. It had not been decided what to do with the Half-elven until Manwe made his ruling.

My apologies, I was not clear. I was describing (generalizing) what Tolkien seemed to have decided in those cases where he "did" record the fates of the Eruhini - not a rule that the Valar had established which, as you point out, was only formalized by Manwe in regards to the Earendil matter.

And I did specify that this generalization dealt with "until Manwe made his ruling"

So, in the pre-Ruling period I said of the half-elven "the matter was uncertain" and you said "It had not been decided". I think we are in agreement on that point.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Mandos is not going to let such an important decision go without discussing it with Manwe.

Well, that is a speculation. Maybe true, but each Vala had his area and mission and if Ulmo (in the case of Tuor) can "seem to gainsay his bretheren, the Lords of the West" (including Manwe), it's at least a possibility that Mandos might consider the matter in his hands for those who were already in his halls.

In any event, I said "maybe". I.e. this is just a speculation since we really don't know squat about the fates of Elured and Elurin after they were abandoned in the forest. All we know is that "about their fates, no tale tells".

So, "maybe" Mandos DID discuss it with Manwe and Manwe made a decision. But, because it was "in-the-family", so to speak (i.e. a matter really only known about by the Valar) there was no need to make the decision formal.

When Earendil & Elwing showed up, however, the Eldar of Valinor knew they were there and, knowing (also) the Ban that the Valar had put in place which had been broken, the Valar pretty much had to formalize what they were going to do.

They no longer had the option to keep it quiet (as in the cases of Elwing's brothers). That's what I meant by having their hands forced.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

What magic did Luthien "throw around" after returning from Mandos? They returned to Doriath, said good bye, and went to Ossiriand. Thereafter about all said is that she had the Silmaril until she and Beren died.

About all I can think of is the statement that she "healed the winter of Thingol with the touch of her hand." But it's only speculation she "used magic" (or even elvish art) to do so. The winter is described as "Then a winter, as it were the hoar age of mortal Men, fell upon Thingol." That could mean little more than that Thingol was so distraught by the death of Luthien that he began to waste away, grow haggard and agunt, unable to walk, losing his vigor, on his way to dieing himself (from grief, perhaps). And, if so, the touch of her hand was just that - a simple act of love and compassion that showed Thingol his daughter was alive and with him again - and that healed his winter.

On what do you base your claims about her not getting sick, or not walking on snow, or eyesight or etc after her return?

The 'touch of her hand' that healed Thingol to me seemed more than just compassion. In the Lay of Luthien she not only heals Thingol, but all of Doriath too. There is definitely magic at work and not just compassion.

That apart she transforms Tol Galen into a vision of Valinor and the fairest ever dwelling place in Middle Earth.

'Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'

If Aragorn possessed magical ability 66 generations removed from Luthien, how much more so did her great grandson Elros?

As for why Luthien would not get sick etc we need to only look at what Tolkien said about Elros and Elrond.

In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the “seeking else-whither,” as the Eldar called it, the “weariness” or desire to depart from the world

Elros and Elrond did not differ in the innate power they were born with. Everything Elrond could do so could Elros. The only difference is the weariness that would come upon Elros.

My apologies, I was not clear. I was describing (generalizing) what Tolkien seemed to have decided in those cases where he "did" record the fates of the Eruhini - not a rule that the Valar had established which, as you point out, was only formalized by Manwe in regards to the Earendil matter.

And I did specify that this generalization dealt with "until Manwe made his ruling"

So, in the pre-Ruling period I said of the half-elven "the matter was uncertain" and you said "It had not been decided". I think we are in agreement on that point.

Yes we are in agreement.

Well, that is a speculation. Maybe true, but each Vala had his area and mission and if Ulmo (in the case of Tuor) can "seem to gainsay his bretheren, the Lords of the West" (including Manwe), it's at least a possibility that Mandos might consider the matter in his hands for those who were already in his halls.

In any event, I said "maybe". I.e. this is just a speculation since we really don't know squat about the fates of Elured and Elurin after they were abandoned in the forest. All we know is that "about their fates, no tale tells".

So, "maybe" Mandos DID discuss it with Manwe and Manwe made a decision. But, because it was "in-the-family", so to speak (i.e. a matter really only known about by the Valar) there was no need to make the decision formal.

When Earendil & Elwing showed up, however, the Eldar of Valinor knew they were there and, knowing (also) the Ban that the Valar had put in place which had been broken, the Valar pretty much had to formalize what they were going to do.

They no longer had the option to keep it quiet (as in the cases of Elwing's brothers). That's what I meant by having their hands forced.

Manwe discussed the nature of the Half-elven with Eru, the mortality of Luthien and possibly the immortality of Tuor. When it came to the Children of Illuvatar, Manwe was hesitant to make any changes to their fates without understanding the will of Eru. So I believe ultimately Eru would decide their fate.