The Istari and Arnor's fall - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Inziladun · 12-01-2012, 01:38 PM

You know, I don't recall ever considering this before.

Although we aren't told the exact arrival time of the Istari, the Tale of Years says:

Quote:

c. 1100 The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgûl.

Appendix A says that the Witch-king began to afflict Arnor in the time of Malvegil of Arthedain, who died in TA 1349.

So Arnor had already fragmented into the three competing mini-kingdoms by the time the Istari had arrived and were active in Middle-earth. Maybe that was a factor in their failure to aid. Perhaps they thought that any attempts to side with one kingdom or the other would only enrage the others, and any attempts to force reconciliation would not only do the same, but would be in conflict with their instructions from the Valar.

Also, though it might seem callous, the mission of the Istari was to resist Sauron, not necessarily all his minions. They already thought that the power in Dol Guldur was a Nazgûl, so they wouldn't have had any illusions that the Lord of Angmar was Sauron.

Galadriel55 · 12-01-2012, 08:12 PM

Good question, urbanhiker! *scratches head*

I'm wondering - what were the Istari doing at all during that period of time? It wasn't until 2463 that the White Council was formed. That's a millenium-and-a-half later. The Chronicle of Arda in the Enc. of Arda says no word about the Istari from year 1000 to that point. What in Middle-Earth were they doing?

urbanhiker · 12-01-2012, 08:58 PM

Speculation will provide us with all kinds of possible reasons why the actions of the Istari are unmentioned for the first 1,000 years after their arrival. Perhaps, as Inziladun has suggested, they were not contractually obligated to fight lieutenants and minions like the Witch-King but rather the Dark Lord himself, and he was as yet incognito in the world. Or maybe they were just biding their time, acclimating to Middle-Earth and meeting elves and men and adjusting to physical form. I guess I could understand that it might take hundreds of years to hike the land, meet the folk dwelling therein, form relationships with all beings of good nature, and in general gather the intimate knowledge of the world one would need to fulfill an Istari's mission.

Still, I find it remarkable that Tolkien apparently chose not to textually elaborate on their early deeds and doings, particularly those of Gandalf and Saruman, when he elaborates on almost everyone and everything else! What kinds of fascinating little journeys and struggles and experiences did they have? I've never read anything but the trilogy, the Hobbit and the Silmarillion so maybe a loremaster on this site will provide us with illumination.

Thank you for your responses! It's good to hear that I'm not the only one left wondering.

Morthoron · 12-01-2012, 10:57 PM

It could be they were simply not there. My impression is that the Istari were a well-traveled lot, and they journeyed far and wide - to the furthest south and east of east. The blue wizards went east and never returned, and it seemed Radagast became enamored of flora and fauna very early on. It could well be that Gandalf and Saruman went to the furthest ends of Middle-earth, looking into men's hearts and divining the nature of different civilizations. Gandalf learned compassion and how to steel mens' wills, while Saruman learned how to rule men's hearts and minds. They were, to paraphrase Gandalf, "rolling stones".

urbanhiker · 12-01-2012, 11:57 PM

I like your idea Morthoron. The notion of Gandalf and the other wizards wandering the earth as rolling stones is something Tolkien also incorporated into Aragorn's character when he journeyed into Rhun where "the stars are strange" (I love that line).

But for 1,000 years? Or even 500?

It's frustrating that Tolkien didn't elaborate on this period in the Istari history since it was a pivotal time in the Third Age: the long offensive of Angmar and the fall of all three northern kingdoms, the rise of the Balrog in Moria and the overthrow of Khazad-Dum, war and turmoil between Gondor and the corsairs of Umbar and other southern kingdoms. Bad time to go missing.

Inziladun · 12-02-2012, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It could be they were simply not there. My impression is that the Istari were a well-traveled lot, and they journeyed far and wide - to the furthest south and east of east. The blue wizards went east and never returned, and it seemed Radagast became enamored of flora and fauna very early on. It could well be that Gandalf and Saruman went to the furthest ends of Middle-earth, looking into men's hearts and divining the nature of different civilizations. Gandalf learned compassion and how to steel mens' wills, while and Saruman learned how to rule men's hearts and minds. They were, to paraphrase Gandalf, "rolling stones".

Yet at least some of the Istari were meeting with Elves and ruminating over what might be up with Dol Guldur after being in ME scarcely 100 years.

Rhod the Red · 12-02-2012, 12:28 AM

Well the Arnor kingdoms did unite against
Angmar, just not quickly and sufficiently
enough.

Plus recall the Istari were subject to a
memory block. They had to re-learn much.
Anothr reason why they traveled about
a lot.

Aiwendil · 12-02-2012, 10:09 AM

How do we know that they weren't involved in the war with Angmar? We don't have terribly much information about that time period. Moreover, if the Istari had only recently arrived, they would not yet be as widely known or respected as they later became, and their actions would thus be less likely to be recorded by chroniclers.

Nor should we assume that if they had been involved they necessarily would have been succesful in defending Arnor. They had great power but they were far from being all-powerful.

It also occurs to me that they may not have wanted to reveal themselves too clearly to Sauron at this point, which is another reason their role in the war, if they had one, might have gone unnoticed.

12-01-2012, 08:12 PM	#2
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,515	Good question, urbanhiker! scratches head I'm wondering - what were the Istari doing at all during that period of time? It wasn't until 2463 that the White Council was formed. That's a millenium-and-a-half later. The Chronicle of Arda in the Enc. of Arda says no word about the Istari from year 1000 to that point. What in Middle-Earth were they doing? __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

12-01-2012, 08:58 PM	#3
urbanhiker Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 11	Speculation will provide us with all kinds of possible reasons why the actions of the Istari are unmentioned for the first 1,000 years after their arrival. Perhaps, as Inziladun has suggested, they were not contractually obligated to fight lieutenants and minions like the Witch-King but rather the Dark Lord himself, and he was as yet incognito in the world. Or maybe they were just biding their time, acclimating to Middle-Earth and meeting elves and men and adjusting to physical form. I guess I could understand that it might take hundreds of years to hike the land, meet the folk dwelling therein, form relationships with all beings of good nature, and in general gather the intimate knowledge of the world one would need to fulfill an Istari's mission. Still, I find it remarkable that Tolkien apparently chose not to textually elaborate on their early deeds and doings, particularly those of Gandalf and Saruman, when he elaborates on almost everyone and everything else! What kinds of fascinating little journeys and struggles and experiences did they have? I've never read anything but the trilogy, the Hobbit and the Silmarillion so maybe a loremaster on this site will provide us with illumination. Thank you for your responses! It's good to hear that I'm not the only one left wondering. Last edited by urbanhiker; 12-01-2012 at 09:09 PM.

12-01-2012, 10:57 PM	#4
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,515	It could be they were simply not there. My impression is that the Istari were a well-traveled lot, and they journeyed far and wide - to the furthest south and east of east. The blue wizards went east and never returned, and it seemed Radagast became enamored of flora and fauna very early on. It could well be that Gandalf and Saruman went to the furthest ends of Middle-earth, looking into men's hearts and divining the nature of different civilizations. Gandalf learned compassion and how to steel mens' wills, while Saruman learned how to rule men's hearts and minds. They were, to paraphrase Gandalf, "rolling stones". __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 12-02-2012 at 07:58 AM.

12-02-2012, 12:28 AM	#7
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	Well the Arnor kingdoms did unite against Angmar, just not quickly and sufficiently enough. Plus recall the Istari were subject to a memory block. They had to re-learn much. Anothr reason why they traveled about a lot. __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

12-01-2012, 11:57 PM	#5
urbanhiker Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 11	I like your idea Morthoron. The notion of Gandalf and the other wizards wandering the earth as rolling stones is something Tolkien also incorporated into Aragorn's character when he journeyed into Rhun where "the stars are strange" (I love that line). But for 1,000 years? Or even 500? It's frustrating that Tolkien didn't elaborate on this period in the Istari history since it was a pivotal time in the Third Age: the long offensive of Angmar and the fall of all three northern kingdoms, the rise of the Balrog in Moria and the overthrow of Khazad-Dum, war and turmoil between Gondor and the corsairs of Umbar and other southern kingdoms. Bad time to go missing.

12-02-2012, 10:09 AM	#8
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	How do we know that they weren't involved in the war with Angmar? We don't have terribly much information about that time period. Moreover, if the Istari had only recently arrived, they would not yet be as widely known or respected as they later became, and their actions would thus be less likely to be recorded by chroniclers. Nor should we assume that if they had been involved they necessarily would have been succesful in defending Arnor. They had great power but they were far from being all-powerful. It also occurs to me that they may not have wanted to reveal themselves too clearly to Sauron at this point, which is another reason their role in the war, if they had one, might have gone unnoticed.