Wizard Gone Missing

[littlemanpoet]

Wow, Formy! I think you've done the most to explicate the differences I see. In my struggle to try to identify the differences, I have given them the opposite epithets from Tolkien's original names. I'm likely to be wrong in my epithets, but not in what I notice. I think it boils down to this: I like best Tolkien's evocation of the old European wizard (whether Celtic or Germanic or Nordic doesn't matter at all!), and very much appreciate Gandalf in all of Tolkien's evocations. Regardless of how infrequently Tolkien refers to Gandalf as Olorin, he did so; it was part of his milieu as published.

I do find it interesting and somehow informative (of what, I'm not sure yet) that Gandalf is an unfallen Maiar whereas Merlin is a demon-spawn: Tolkien has scrubbed his wizard clean of all the nasty origin.

[TheLostPilgrim]

Gandalf is sort of the inverse of Merlin:

Both advise and counsel but use different means. Gandalf always uses good to reach good ends. Merlin sometimes uses evil (IE the rape of Igrayne) to reach good ends. They share the aim of ultimately bringing the realms they inhabit to goodness, to right.

Perhaps Merlin was one of the Blue Wizards in latter days, with the stories being somewhat twisted through time.

[Galadriel55]

I am not as learned in various lores as the other people who posted on this thread, but I want to give my two cents. While it's hard for me to differentiate between a "Germanic" and a "Norse" wizard, I can see the difference between that and a "Celtic" one. It's not so much about the correct terminology as being able to convey the right image.

Thinking of wizards' appearances I remembered one bit of Norse mythology that describes Odin - while he is a warrior, he would sometimes take the shape of an old man with a long beard leaning on a staff, wearing a big hat and a cloak. Sounds familiar? And though one of his aspects is concerned with magic (my memory is a bit hazy here) I don't recall him doing that magic through the influence of nature (ie the elements) - but again, I can't be sure about that last point.

There are two ways to do magic/miracles/whatever you want to call it. You could do it with the nature, or against the nature. An example of "with" would be Sam asking for light and water in Mordor and - surprise - they found water and it becomes light. It's as if someone actually influences the nature. An example of "against" would be Gandalf setting the place on fire to scare off wargs and werewolves near Moria. It's less of an act through the means of nature and more of an act independent of nature.

Sometimes it's hard to draw a clear line between the two, but at any rate Gandalf, when doing "magic", tends to go against nature. I would say that this is more Nordic than Celtic.

Then, there is an interesting aspect I noticed regarding the Russian translation of LOTR. There are words in Russian with a similar etymology as the word wizard - they also stem from the words wisdom, knowledge. But the translators did not use any of these words; they chose the non-Slavic term mag (which stems from the same roots as magic). Now to put in a word for the Slavic "wizards" - they tend to do magic with nature (so are closer in this sense to Celtic wizards than to Norse ones). On the other hand, mag is associated more with magic against nature. I know that the translators are not Tolkien, but in my opinion this shows very much what sort of wizard they believed Gandalf to be.


However, the division of Norse/Germanic/Celtic is not really the point. The question is about how and why Gandalf changes.

As for his changes in TH, I agree with what Legate has said - ie that how you act depends on where and when. But also I think that the mood of the entire book becomes more grave at that point. Well, the change begins a bit earlier, but the point is that overall the Mountain chapters are much graver than An Unexpected Party. Bilbo gains some wisdom and maturity, the Dwarves get an aspect of seriousness and a passionate longing for their home in addition to their earlier depiction, the "adventure" becomes much more dangerous and complex than a hobbit-and-dwarf walking party... So just as everything changes, so does Gandalf's personality.

But I think it is not until LOTR that his real wisdom and power shine through. In TH, even at the end, he is still more of a comical-wizard, "conjuring cheap tricks". In LOTR, while he still does some of that "magic", his greater power is not is his little tricks. They seem petty compared to the power of his will and thought. But he is just that - will and wisdom clothed in a body. When he becomes Gandalf the White, it is as if he is given special permission to act, in addition to what he had as Gandalf the Grey. Not that he did not act before, but those were more passive actions, in a sense.

So Gandalf just gains and gains as he goes along, and we gain information about him as we go along (in book terms). Doesn't really lose anything, but some aspects are merely overshadowed.

[littlemanpoet]

The new names arrived around the time Thorin & Co. reached the Lonely Mountain--thus freeing up the name "Bladorthin" to belong to the king of the undelivered spears--and when the wizard returned to the stage he was Gandalf.

This is the anchor I have needed. It fits with what I've been struggling to say. The change in Gandalf occurs between his disappearance just before Mirkwood, and his return just before the Battle of Five Armies.

Does Rateliff's book say that "Bladorthin" is an Elvish name?

I'm not sure it matters. If I were a writer in Tolkien's place, I would want to make my wizard have a very different kind of name from my Dwarves. Bladorthin is very different; Tolkien realized later that Gandalf is also different from the other Dwarvish names, having the root "elf" in it. So in his wizard he always had an "Elvish" quality.

For Tolkien, it seems, "Elvish" meant a different kind of magic than that of the Dwarves. Yet both are perhaps Nordic/Germanic as opposed to Celtic. (Thanks for your help in clearing that up a bit, Galadriel55).

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Does Rateliff's book say that "Bladorthin" is an Elvish name?

Rateliff can't provide a gloss on Bladorthin to give us an idea of what it translates too, but he provides plenty of evidence to show that it contains elements of Gnomish/Noldorin (the Sindarin antecedents that were current in the Silmarillion tradition of the time) and there's no doubt that Tolkien borrowed from himself in devising the name.

I don't have the books to hand, but I also recall him commenting that the "-thin" element in the name is close to the same element in "Thingol" (Greycloak) and he notes that Bladorthin in his conception contains elements of "the Grey."

[littlemanpoet]

Yesterday I reread an old Mythlore Magazine (sponsored by the Mythopoeic Society) article about the Trickster in fantasy and myth. The author identified Gandalf, in The Hobbit, as fitting the Trickster archetype, in the following ways:

• he tricks Bilbo into joining the Dwarves as a thief
• he disappears suddenly with no explanation just before the party meets up with the Trolls
• he reappears - again with no explanation - to get the Dwarves and Bilbo out of their fix with the Trolls
• he disappears just when the Goblins capture the party
• he reappears to save them from the Goblins
• he tricks Beorn into hosting a hobbit and 13 dwarves
• he again leaves without explanation just before they enter Mirkwood

The last thing one can say about a Trickster character is that he is boring! But it's clear that Tolkien had to change, or at least explain, this kind of behavior in the context of his more serious sequel to The Hobbit.

[Rumil]

Interesting!

Also, although this was a later idea of course, Gandalf had to veil his power (as an Istari) and I guess the last thing he would have done in the Shire was turning his Istari-ness up to 11.

Note that he tweaks the dial up somewhat in front of Bilbo when B is trying to hang on to The Ring before leaving Bag End. Even Pippin notices, eventually, in Minas Tirith, that Gandalf, while appearing weaker, is really far stronger and far older (how old? wonderred Pippin) than Denethor.

Gandalf in the War of the Ring 'says many grim things', of course he does, the world is at stake here after all. But afterwards he relaxes and his lines of care disappear.

If you like, Gandalf tailors his image to suit the sitiuation and the onlooker, from the crotchety trickster at Bag End to the thoughtful and paternalistic at Dale, to the LoTR foreboding and portentous, the defiant, the renewer, etc etc. To be fair he had an awful lot of practice at dealing with the various inhabitants of Middle Earth so was no doubt quite good at it by the end of the 3rd Age.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Yesterday I reread an old Mythlore Magazine (sponsored by the Mythopoeic Society) article about the Trickster in fantasy and myth. The author identified Gandalf, in The Hobbit, as fitting the Trickster archetype, in the following ways:

• he tricks Bilbo into joining the Dwarves as a thief
• he disappears suddenly with no explanation just before the party meets up with the Trolls
• he reappears - again with no explanation - to get the Dwarves and Bilbo out of their fix with the Trolls
• he disappears just when the Goblins capture the party
• he reappears to save them from the Goblins
• he tricks Beorn into hosting a hobbit and 13 dwarves
• he again leaves without explanation just before they enter Mirkwood

The last thing one can say about a Trickster character is that he is boring! But it's clear that Tolkien had to change, or at least explain, this kind of behavior in the context of his more serious sequel to The Hobbit.

1. Gandalf doesn't completely trick Bilbo into taking the adventure. Bilbo himself agrees to go.
2. Gandalf had many things to do. I would say not that he disappeared when the trolls came into play, but that without Gandalf they soon got into trouble.
3. He does not disappear when the goblins come to capture the dwarves. He wakes up in time to fight many of, but the cave closes before he can get through to them.
4. We later learn he has left to deal with the Necromancer.

Gandalf apart from a few white lies cannot relate to the trickers in Norse Mythology. Even Odin is far more ominous character than Gandalf.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

...I do find it interesting and somehow informative (of what, I'm not sure yet) that Gandalf is an unfallen Maiar whereas Merlin is a demon-spawn: Tolkien has scrubbed his wizard clean of all the nasty origin.

I suspect that Merlin, taken as an archetype, was the victim of 'bad press'. The conquering Romans could not defeat them so they demonised them. What we have are stories told by the victors in the battle for Europe south of the Rhine.

Germania was the name given to peoples North of the Rhine, regardless of actual language or alliances. They did not call themselves Germans/Germanic.
The defining difference between Celtic (aka Keltoi, or Gaulish, Galician, Galatian...)and Germanic societies was the degree of Romanisation.
The name-calling cuts both ways. Some of those 'Germanic' peoples had names for Romanised peoples too, such as 'wealas'. This is a term that came to be associated with oath breaking (to 'welsch' on a deal) and with those tribes driven into Western Britain (Wales and Cornwealas). These people did not call themselves Welsh, we gave them that name.

It seems logical to suppose that apparent differences in their Wise men (I could say women too, but I am getting to Gandalf's roots rather than Galadriel's) were more the result of the changing agendas of their respective societies. The Romans kept meeting resistance to their rule across Europe. Someone or some group of people kept uniting forces against them on both sides of the Rhine. What better way to tackle these elusive tale-tellers and king-makers than to demonise them in new tales?

My point is that Norman tales calling Merlin "demon spawn", or your saying he has a "nasty origin", seems to me the same as calling Gandalf "Storm-crow" or "Lathspel"/"Ill-news". Ill news for who?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Tolkien had a picture postcard on which he wrote "origin of Gandalf"; it was of a painting by the German artist Josef Madlener depicting a cloaked, long-bearded old man in a mountain forest petting a fawn, entitled "Der Berggeist" or The Mountain-spirit. http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/9..._Berggeist.jpg

In other words, pretty Germanic.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Tolkien had a picture postcard on which he wrote "origin of Gandalf"; it was of a painting by the German artist Josef Madlener depicting a cloaked, long-bearded old man in a mountain forest petting a fawn, entitled "Der Berggeist" or The Mountain-spirit. http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/9..._Berggeist.jpg

In other words, pretty Germanic.

Rübezahl!!! (Or, in my mothertongue, Krakonoš!!)

Never thought about that - but - now that I see it, it all makes sense! Okay, this guy is really a big thing in the Czech folklore (he is said to reside in the mountains which border Germany, and Poland, too, and obviously those two also have him in their culture, though I am not sure how strong the motive is there, but speaking from my perspective, he is really well known). It would never have occured to me to think of him as having anything to do with Gandalf (he's really a sort of mountain-spirit, which Gandalf obviously isn't), but his behavior is really of pretty much the same sort, now that I think about it.

There was a sort of TV "good-night for children" series of fairytales, made I think sometime in the 80's, which basically all the Czech children know, and there the main hero was Krakonoš - exactly this guy - and I never realised it, but now when I think about it, he had a lot of "Gandalf"-elements in him. Exactly this sort of trickster-type Gandalf, though. (The series revolved around an evil greedy duke who was exploiting his poor servants, and always did something nasty, like wanted to steal from someone or hunt some poor fluffy animals in the woods, and this Krakonoš always came and saved the day by some trick. He was sort of "deus ex machina".)

Here for example is part of one episode from the TV series where the evil duke is punished because he wanted to steal food from animals in the woods - I suggest watching something like from 4:07-4:20, where you can see Krakonoš (Rübezahl) with his typical pipe (one more Gandalfish attribute). Or here is one full episode (in Czech) where he disguises himself as an important noble guest - I suggest watching something like 7:20-7:40 to get the idea, where Krakonoš reverts back to his normal form (non-disguised). This is a very Hobbit-Gandalf-y type of thing to do, in my opinion, or something I could imagine the Gandalf from the Hobbit to do. He also scorns the duke in a rather Gandalf-y way (you can just tell from the tone of the voice). This "lightning effect" was actually sort of a signature move of his whenever he appeared or when his true nature was revealed. Gandalf Uncloaked?

(Although if you watch e.g. a bit from 1:50 on, he has much pretty strong Radagast-y or Tom Bombadil-y side, too. He also had this funny little bird to deliver messages and spy for him.)

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Tolkien had a picture postcard on which he wrote "origin of Gandalf"; it was of a painting by the German artist Josef Madlener depicting a cloaked, long-bearded old man in a mountain forest petting a fawn, entitled "Der Berggeist" or The Mountain-spirit. http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/9..._Berggeist.jpg

In other words, pretty Germanic.

The artist was a contemporary of Tolkien's, and thus it's a modern depiction. So I'd say the painting is a Romantic portrayal of a wizard. The artist happens to be Germanic but is that enough to say Gandalf is too?

This wizard's scarlet cloak is interesting. Wearing red is an ancient and widespread indication of high status, scarlet dye was particularly expensive, and there were rules about who was allowed to wear it. Whatever language he is supposed to have spoken this guy would have had similar status to a cardinal.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Madlener was certainly a late-Romantic artist, but his themes, when not religious, tended to run to German folklore: the Lady of the Wood, the Vision of Hubertus (the stag with a cross between its antlers, as seen on the Jagermeister label).

He has also been called "der Maler der schwäbischen Weihnacht," the painter of Swabian Christmas, for his many Christmas-themed works.

Having grown up in Bavaria, I can verify how very much in tune with South German popular art Madlener's work was.

More here http://www.memmingen.de/76.html for those who don't mind German

---------------------
is as German as all get-out,

as is
this:




but isn't this next one as Tolkien as all get-out?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This BTW is Madlener himself:



Gandalf?

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Madlener was certainly a late-Romantic artist, but his themes, when not religious, tended to run to German folklore...

Having grown up in Bavaria, I can verify how very much in tune with South German popular art Madlener's work was...

I like the Romantics, and that's probably why I like Tolkein. They laboured to revive a sense of the mysterious and noble, especially the notion of the "noble savage", in an age where xenophobia was being allied with social-Darwinism.
I also like the British Pre-Raphaelites and Art Nouveau even though they added to the trend of depicting Iron Age Celtic knights in medieval Teutonic (Germanic) armour. Historically inaccurate but giving us the popular imagery we now think of as Arthurian.
I know how keen Tolkien was on Germanic saga, but none the less, probably because of the power of Arthurian tales in British culture, I find it hard not to see Gandalf as Merlin.