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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 479
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See Morgoth’s Ring (HoME X), page 370 (emphasis mine): This descends from the oldest forms of the mythology – when it was intended to be no more than another primitive mythology, though more coherent and less ‘savage’. It was consequently a ‘Flat Earth′ cosmogony (much easier to manage anyway): the Matter of Númenor had not been devised.Tolkien’s story of Elvish kings and nobles is not supposed to be true even within his imaginary world. Fëanor presumably really existed in this imaginary world, but much that is told of him in these Manish tales were deeds of other folk that were later “personalized and centered” on Fëanor. Tolkien certainly knew that in reality Fëanor was invented by him. Tolkien tried to rework his Silmarillion material to fit with scientific findings, which Tolkien himself really believed. However, in trying this, he found that he was destroying most of the basis of the Silmarillion story. So he ended up accepting it as yet another false Mannish mythology. Occasionally in his later writing Tolkien refers to what must have supposedly really happened. Quote:
I personally resent being told by anyone what I would believe, especially when it is something I very much do I not believe. Speak for yourself only and for others who you have reason to believe agree with you, and speak clearly. As to people who believe in religions, there are thousands of differing contradictory religious beliefs in the world. It is possible that somewhere there are some people who believe in Manwë and Varda as non-fictional entities, just as occasionally one discovers that some people believe that Sherlock Holmes is real. I don’t find either belief at all uplifting. I very much doubt that Tolkien would. Tolkien often makes it clear that he knew quite well that he was inventing, though at times he hoped that his inventions would prove pleasing to God. Tolkien certainly believed his fictional creations were in some way true, in the same way that almost every writer believes that his or her fictional creations are true in some way when they are writing them. But the same writers also know that their creations are fictional. Tolkien himself when writing about his fiction often appears to take it less seriously than some obsessive fans. Tolkien was no different from most writers. Sometimes he was very into playing the game and sometimes he was not. But he knew at some level that it was a game. From an interview with Henry Resnik, published in Niekas 18, page 38 (http://efanzines.com/Niekas/Niekas-18.pdf ): T: Yes I do. I shouldn't call it a fad; I wouldn't call it underground. I'd call it a game.Christopher Tolkien, who should know, writes in The Children of Húrin, page 7: It is undeniable that there are a great many readers of The Lord of the Rings (as previously published in varying forms in The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and The History of Middle-earth) are altogether unknown, unless by their repute as strange and inaccessible in mode and manner.It was Christopher Tolkien’s hope that by publishing The Children of Húrin in full for the first time, with little commentary, he might present some of this “inaccessible” material more accessibly. Other fantasy writers have created what one might call universes in more than one book before Tolkien: William Morris, George MacDonald, James Branch Cabell, Lord Dunsany, Robert E. Howard, Mervyn Peake, E. E. Eddison, and probably others. I do not think it does the works of Tolkien or any of these writers any favours to compare them with numerous books that disagree with one another: the Qurʼan, the Book of Mormon, the Mahabharata, the Gathas of Zarathusta, any of the Christian Bibles, Jewish scriptures, Buddhist scriptures, the Norse Eddas and so on. |
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Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
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Who peed on your lembas, Jallanite? Here you have a poster, TheLostPilgrim, who I will assume is young (if that is not the case, please excuse me), and who has just read The Silmarillion for the first time within the last year (and I believe I remember Pilgrim saying so). The poster is excited, as excited as I was when I first read The Silmarillion, a far different book than The Hobbit or Lord of the Rings. When Pilgrim said:
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For instance, in the same letter to Waldman, Tolkien makes no reference to the cosmological mythos as a "mannish affair"; on the contrary, he states the early myths are literally devoid of mannish thought and intention: Quote:
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When TheLostPilgrim said: Quote:
![]() Taken in context with that Pilgrim actually said, if Tolkien's work was written during the time of the writing of the Mosaic Laws in the Babylonian exilic period, why wouldn't his cosmology be taken as scripture now? It certainly not as boring as the Bible or the Quran. The breathtaking description of Creation in the Ainulindalë is more stirring than Yahweh plopping down cows on the Fifth Day. The stories in The Silmarillion are far-fetched, certainly, but then so is most scripture from the Bible, Quran or the Vedas. In its mode of storytelling, The Silmarillion is a unique synthesis of biblical, Icelandic, Norse and Finnish legends with a bit of the Greek Pantheon sprinkled on top, and I don't see Snorri Sturluson or the writer of Beowulf being at odds with what was presented. And as far as a synthesis, it is less dependent on source material than the huge amount Mohammed lifted from the Torah when he cobbled together the Quran (amounting to plagiarism in the current litigious climate). When you made the comment (with the finality of a patriarch): Quote:
But I do love Tolkien's ironic quote: Quote:
So, TheLostPilgrim, revel in The Silmarillion. Enjoy the reading. Just remember, a wet blanket will never keep you warm. ![]()
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 11-17-2012 at 06:26 AM. |
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