The Maiar - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

d4rk3lf · 11-05-2012, 01:07 PM

What I have always wondering, is Sauron's opinion about fate of the world.
I mean, he witnessed twice Morgoth defeat by the Valars, he was defeated in Numenor, he vas even defeated by the aliance of man and elf.

So, what he would expect if he would succeed to conquer the whole Middle Earth?
That the Valars (or Eru) would leave him to rule it forever? I don't think so.

I know Tolkien explained that Morgot (or in this case Sauron) were so evil that they were never understand sympathy for elfs and men from the Valars, but I understand this for Morgot who still got chanse to improve himself, but not for the Sauron, who, as I said already have witnessed so many defeats by the Valars, and curse of Feanor, and everything that shows that Eru's intentions can't be denied.

If I (simple human) understand that, how come that Sauron (from angelic nature) didn't get it?

Draugohtar · 11-05-2012, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

If I (simple human) understand that, how come that Sauron (from angelic nature) didn't get it?

Because Tolkien is expressing the existence of absolute evil.

Evil that self-deludes to the point where it utterly believes the lies it tells of itself to others.

Thus Melkor came to believe he could indeed defy Eru and the might of the combined Ainur. Further even when it was clear to him, in the beginning, that Illuvatar's power was inviolate, he still chose Lucifer's option: Better to rule in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

Sauron was simply following that lead. He was utterly corrupted, and clearly believed that he could indeed be victorious.

Puddleglum · 11-05-2012, 06:38 PM

Put another way it can be phrased in a simple question (the "question" is simple, the implications of the "answer" are anything but in human experience) ...

What do you do when you desire to be the final arbiter of your own life - but you find yourself in a universe where their is an all-powerful being (i.e. God - with a capital G --- in this case called "Eru" or "Illuvatar") who demands you acknowledge HIS lordship over your life.

I think this is part of what Tolkien is exploring. Sauron (and Melkor, etc) can have no uncertainty in their factual knowledge about Eru but they are also unwilling to submit.

What can one do in such a situation?

If you won't submit, how else do you resolve the dilemma except by willing self delusion (i.e. that Eru will "let" you be your own master, or even that he isn't "really" all-powerful so you have a chance of setting up on your own apart from him?

11-05-2012, 06:38 PM	#3
Puddleglum Wight Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 145	Put another way it can be phrased in a simple question (the "question" is simple, the implications of the "answer" are anything but in human experience) ... What do you do when you desire to be the final arbiter of your own life - but you find yourself in a universe where their is an all-powerful being (i.e. God - with a capital G --- in this case called "Eru" or "Illuvatar") who demands you acknowledge HIS lordship over your life. I think this is part of what Tolkien is exploring. Sauron (and Melkor, etc) can have no uncertainty in their factual knowledge about Eru but they are also unwilling to submit. What can one do in such a situation? If you won't submit, how else do you resolve the dilemma except by willing self delusion (i.e. that Eru will "let" you be your own master, or even that he isn't "really" all-powerful so you have a chance of setting up on your own apart from him?

11-05-2012, 01:07 PM	#1
d4rk3lf Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 18	What I have always wondering, is Sauron's opinion about fate of the world. I mean, he witnessed twice Morgoth defeat by the Valars, he was defeated in Numenor, he vas even defeated by the aliance of man and elf. So, what he would expect if he would succeed to conquer the whole Middle Earth? That the Valars (or Eru) would leave him to rule it forever? I don't think so. I know Tolkien explained that Morgot (or in this case Sauron) were so evil that they were never understand sympathy for elfs and men from the Valars, but I understand this for Morgot who still got chanse to improve himself, but not for the Sauron, who, as I said already have witnessed so many defeats by the Valars, and curse of Feanor, and everything that shows that Eru's intentions can't be denied. If I (simple human) understand that, how come that Sauron (from angelic nature) didn't get it?