What did boromir do in rivendell?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

You might like ths one too then... http://youtu.be/39qdhbkTko4

Lovely.

The motif that women don’t understand cars is unfortunately still with us, though if carefully handled it need not give offence as in fact some males also do not understand cars. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51JtuEa_OPc . Note that the Doctor simply brushes aside Amy’s desire to learn to operate and repair the Tardis while training her husband Rory. Does he love her dearly but think that she is perhaps more suited to talking about kittens. Rory then teases Amy about her incapacity in driving. The upshot is that Amy is, however, very successful at sexually attracting and distracting men, which causes the main problem in this very short episode. The story continues in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkmiefoRcfU in which ditzy Amy manages to sexually attract and distract herself.

Normally Amy is portrayed as a more intelligent person than she is here.

It is still amusing as long as one does not take it that every female is like Amy and that, as other episodes show, Amy is generally intelligent and capable.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

You can just come out and call me sexist as that is what you are essentially doing.

Fair enough. But ask yourself why the only two people who have commented on your posts give you that impression. What have you said that might give them that impression?

Sexism, racism, classism have been hurled at the LotR. No women or few of little significance, no blacks, the Dunedain vs. the Middle Men, et cetera.

Some of these charges are true enough in part. But there is so much more to this one story. You appear to be unecessarily defending Tolkien’s writing by claiming that sexism is alright because most men are physically stronger than most women.

I do not recall Galadriel ever being the ruler of anyone, at least not in title. She and Celeborn did "establish the Noldorin realm of Eregion" [UT, p. 246] though I know Feanor's grandson to be its Lord.

Exactly. Living in a pseudo-medieval world Galadriel is limited by her environment in a way that the sons of Fëanor are not. Her brothers Finrod, Aegnor, and Angrod all have their lands and followers in the First Age while Galadriel does not. The same is true for other Elvish women. They all live with their brothers or their husbands and do not rule on their own, do not have the same rights as their male siblings because they are women.

No surprise. This is a pseudo-medieval world after all. So Galadriel, according to the published Silmarillion:

… the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will.

Eventually she gets her land to rule as she and her husband Celeborn become Lord and Lady of Eregion and then Lothlórien. Lady is here obviously the feminine of Lord. Together Celeborn and Galadriel rule Lothlórien. How did you interpret Galadriel’s title of Lady of Lórien if you “do not recall Galadriel ever being the ruler of anyone, at least not in title”? “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn” in Unfinished Tales states:

Celeborn and Galadriel came to be regarded as Lord and Lady of the Eldar in Eriador, …

That is, Celeborn and Galadriel are rulers of the Eldar in Eriador.

Later (emphasis mine):

So great became his [Sauron’s] hold on the Mírdain that at length he persuades them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion; and that was at some time between 1350 and 1400 of the Second Age. Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand, taking with her Amroth and Celebrían; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and remained in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor. In Lórinand Galadriel took up rule, and defence against Sauron.

Another version of the history of Galadriel and Celeborn states (emphasis mine):

After the disaster of Moria [in the year 1980] and the sorrows of Lórien, which was now left without a ruler (for Amroth was drowned in the sea in the Bay of Belfalas and left no heir), Celeborn and Galadriel returned to Lórien, and were welcomed by the people. They dwelt there while the Third Age lasted, but they took no title of King or Queen; for they said that they were only guardians of this small but fair realm, the last eastward outpost of the Elves.

Yet another version (emphasis mine):

In her wisdom Galadriel saw that Lórien would be a stronghold and point of power to prevent the Shadow from crossing the Anduin in the war that must be inevitably before it was again defeated (if that were possible); but that it needed a rule of greater strength and wisdom than the Silvan folk possessed. Nevertheless, it was not until the disaster in Moria, when by means beyond the foresight of Galadriel Sauron’s power actually crossed the Anduin and Lórien was in great peril, its king [Amroth] lost, its people fleeing and likely to be deserted to be occupied by the Orcs, that Galadriel and Celeborn took up their permanent abode in Lórien, and its government. But they took no title of King or Queen, and were the guardians that in the event brought it unviolated through the War of the Ring.

Try to recall better.

[Mithalwen]

My great-grandfather was works foreman at the Triumph for 25 years over the turn of the last century and refused to employ women thinking they couldn't cope with engineering. He didn't live long enough to see one daughter become a winning rally driver and the other leasrn to fly and drive a train. My mother was one of the first people to drive round Silverstone. Don't have any truck with using the nature of a person's reproductive organs to decide what they should or could do - other than in matters of reproduction of course.

BTW referring women not knowing their place especially as an alternative to sexism does give impression of sexism.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by jallanite

No surprise. This is a pseudo-medieval world after all. So Galadriel, according to the published Silmarillion: the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will.

It reflects not only the pseudo-medieval Middle Earth, but the culture of the time the books were written. These days, if one visits the fantasy / horror section of your neighborhood book store, one is apt to find a strong dash of the 'romance' genre added to the modern magic tradition. The heroine is apt to be an over sexed vampire, werewolf, demon, angel or slayer of whatever. Her sorta trusty sidekick and love interest is more apt to resemble Boromir or Beorn than Samwise. Things have changed.

Not necessarily for the better, mind you.

Fiction often echoes the world view of the author's time and place. Tolkien's time was not particularly enlightened. He pushed the envelope in enough areas that I can't fault him for not pushing in other areas.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Even there, though, Tolkien cites Galadriel *and* Celeborn as co-rulers; he couldn't bring himself to make even the greatest (tie) of all the Eldar a sole ruler in her own right- and this despite the fact that Galadriel was by far superior to he husband in both native power and royal lineage. No Elf-king seems to share rule with his consort! (At least, not if she isn't a demi-goddess).

Here naturally Tolkien is simply being a man of his time, and a product of long European and English tradition. Of England's first three ruling queens, two had to share the crown with their husbands in dual monarchies (Philip and Mary, William and Mary), and the third (Elizabeth) ducked marriage so to avoid that fate. The three since have been carefully paired with "prince consorts;" a King can have a Queen, but not the reverse. In much of the Continent it's worse: Salic law applied and no female could inherit or even transmit inheritance (that's why Victoria was never Queen of Hanover though her uncles and grandfather had been Kings).

As to the 'physical strength' business- in olden days there was a certain logic to that, so long as kings were expected to go out personally and hack at other big men with meat cleavers. It's notable that while Numenor moved from strict male primogeniture to either male-preference or gender-neutral primogeniture (depending on the version of the amended succession law one accepts), neither of the kingdoms in exile ever had a ruling Queen; and this difference can I think be explained by the fact that Numenor was mostly at peace and was never threatened at home, whereas the tale of the North and South Kingdoms is one of constant war.

EDIT: In fact, Gondor passed the crown to a cadet line, and then allowed the Kingship to lapse entirely, rather than even consider a claim by or through a perfectly valid princess, Firiel. Plainly the revised Numenorean law did *not* apply in the South-kingdom.