Legolas and the Balrog

[Nerwen]

Again– exactly like the "Arkenstone-Silmaril" case. "If... if... if...if..." Sure, you could probably write a great fan-fiction where Legolas was somehow really a Noldo from Gondolin masquerading as a Sinda/Silvan Elf because... well, who knows? Actual evidence that Tolkien meant this to be the case seems to be non-existant, however.

[Findegil]

Nelyo, you must not be dounted by hard answers like that of Nerwen, it is absolut normal that questions like this raise highly polarised diskussions. In such poeple tend too push their argumentation over the brink.

The name alone is an undinialbe evidence. And the Essay on Glorfindel and what Tolkien has to say in it about Galdor showes that this is not void.

Anyhow evidence does not mean hard fact. There are other possible and probable interpretations.

And a warning form a graet combiner of sources: Tolkiens world made a big development over time. The further apart in time of compsition the sources are you try to combine, the easier you will find some kind soul that will show that they are (in his interpretation) uncompatible at all becaus they discribe two completly seperated worlds. And most probably you will also soon hear about some kind of 'core cannon' that should be used only. To start then the discussion about the content of that 'core cannon' is like opening pandoras box.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Mithalwen]

I had also assumed it was Legolas' keener sight that led him to first identify the Balrog and I think that this is just a case of the name being recycled.

Tolkien did recycle names and unlike with the case of Glorfindel where the coincidences between Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were too strong to be ignored there is not the same evidence.

Legolas of Gondolin if he were avaliable to be part of the fellowship would have been of a stature to compare with Glorfindel and it is clear that Legolas of Mirkwood is not "an elf Lord such as Glorfindel". His behaviour does not fit with being a veteran of Gondolin. Also Legolas of Gondolin would surely have fought at the last alliance yet Legolas of Gondor has not travelled so far. Much more consistent with being either unborn or left behind as heir while his father and grandfather fought in Mordor.

Legolas can be old enough to regard Aragorn and Gimli as children without being a first age Elf.

[Nerwen]

Findegil– I'm actually not picking on Nelyo, or you. Or trying to stop anyone talking about anything. However, by the same token that people are allowed to put forward arguments, other people are allowed to point out the flaws and gaps in those arguments.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Even in the late Glorfindel essay, Tolkien didn't say that "Elves never re-used names," but that "repetition of so striking a name [as Glorfindel] would not be cradible. No other major character in the Elvish legends... has a name borne by another person of importance." Legolas and Galdor of Gondolin weren't really major characters in the legends, not by Glorfindel/Ecthelion standards.

Whereas by the start of the writing of The Lord of the Rings the old 'Fall of Gondolin' had receded into dim memory and most of its chieftains (Galdor, Legolas, Rog, Duilin) with it, Glorfindel (and Ecthelion) remained present; as late as the later Annals of Beleriand (ca. 1937) he is still mentioned- and understandably. Only two Elves ever destroyed a Balrog, even though both died in doing so. Moreover, Glorfindel and Ecthelion are still present after the writing of the Lord of the Rings, being named as Isfin/Aredhel's escort in the first draft of 'Maeglin.' (Ecthelion also appears at the end of the Long Tuor).

So Glorfindel survived, as a character in Tolkien's mind, whereas the old Gnome Legolas to all appearances disappeared except as a sound-series. (Note also that the old 12 Houses of Gondolin had disappeared by the Long Tuor (1951), with its new military organization based on the Seven Gates. We can just barely preserve Glorfindel's Golden Flower by making it a poetic name for the Gate of the Sun and its guard).


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But I suppose if we want to get all speculative, and still be cognizant that Legolas of the Nine Walkers was a Sinda, grandson of an Elf of Doriath and not any sort of Gondolingoldo, we could call to mind that Elves had at least two and often three (or more) names, and any one of these could be the name in everyday usage. One could thus speculate that "Legolas" was neither his father-name nor his mother-name, but an epesse (cognomen); and further posit that it was bestowed once he showed in his youth evidence of very keen eyesight even by Eldarin standards, so that he was likened to the legendarily far-sighted Legolas of Gondolin and so nicknamed.

[urbanhiker]

This is my first post on the Barrow Downs forum, and primarily I want to acknowledge Nerwen's articulate thoughts. Well said, Nerwen, particularly in regards to the nature of argument. We shouldn't hold our theories too dear but rather seek the higher goal of Truth, or at least accuracy.

The original question, why Gandalf didn't immediately recognize the Balrog when Legolas did, is framed incorrectly. When Gandalf first encountered the Balrog, at the door of the Chamber of Mazarbul, he didn't see the Balrog. It was behind the door, and had not yet burst into flame. When the door broke apart, Gandalf still couldn't clearly perceive the Balrog. All he saw was something "dark as a cloud."

Later, in the large hall before the bridge, the Balrog leaps over the fire-lit fissure and the flames leap up to greet it, kindling its mane and revealing it for what it is. A Balrog. A shadow and a flame. Legolas wails "A Balrog is come!" and at almost the same Gandalf mutters "A Balrog. Now I understand." They both recognized it. They both recognize it at almost exactly the same time, and to my reading, they discretely recognize it each for themselves. Gandalf's quiet realization bespeaks a deeper understanding of the nature of their enemy.

That's all I've got for now. Thanks for reading.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Good maiden post, urbanhiker!

Yes, your points are all well taken.

I would add in the thought that people generally in the first instance accept what they are prepared to believe- but in this case we have a combination of seven Walkers with a relatively narrow perception of time-scale, even Gimli, and two whose perspective is staggeringly wide from a mortal standpoint.

Remember, no Balrog has been seen for nearly six and a half thousand years.* In real-world terms, that puts us in the Lower Neolithic: man has developed pottery and mud-brick construction, but not writing; history has yet to start. Even the Epic of Gilgamesh isn't that old. Add to that the fact that even the Wise were under the impression that all the Balrogs had been finished off in the War of Wrath, it was an extinct life-form, and the idea of encountering one at the end of the Third Age would be as shocking, as literally incredible, as encountering a real live Neanderthal or saber-toothed cat.

But Legolas and Gandalf don't view time in quite the same way. "Like I said to Moses that time..." Leggy might or might not have been born in the Elder Days, but he still wouldn't be especially freaked out by a millennial time-span; and Olorin, we can assume, actually took part in the Great Battle. This on top of the fact that the two of them might perhaps be more sensitive to the supernatural or 'evil' emanation of the thing (although Gandalf senses a Powerful Being well before he sees and identifies it).


Whereas Aragorn and Boromir, even if well-schooled in the ancient legends (less likely in the case of Boromir), would I think be disposed to think of Balrogs as a matter of ancient history as utterly removed from their real present world as the Silmarils, and thus not disposed to include them on their immediate mental "list of horrible creatures this flame-shadow thing might be". This especially since Middle-earth generally and Moria in particular contain any number of nameless monsters; the two of them had just hacked off the tentacles of one of them not two days before.

Gimli had a ready-made classification and name for the thing, which was of course correct. Just not the whole truth.

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*Except for certain Dwarves, who didn't identify it with the Valaraukar of Angamandi.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Even in the late Glorfindel essay, Tolkien didn't say that "Elves never re-used names," but that "repetition of so striking a name [as Glorfindel] would not be cradible. No other major character in the Elvish legends... has a name borne by another person of importance." Legolas and Galdor of Gondolin weren't really major characters in the legends, not by Glorfindel/Ecthelion standards.

I'd also note that elven names are descriptive. If one pulls out the right elvish to english dictionary, they mean something. This left me scrambling a while back, naming my elven character in a Middle Earth game. This experience suggests to me at least that there have been lots more elves in the history of Middle Earth than good elven names. While JRRT might have started out thinking he'd never repeat a name, I can quite understand that he might not have stuck with it.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I'd also note that elven names are descriptive. If one pulls out the right elvish to english dictionary, they mean something. This left me scrambling a while back, naming my elven character in a Middle Earth game. This experience suggests to me at least that there have been lots more elves in the history of Middle Earth than good elven names. While JRRT might have started out thinking he'd never repeat a name, I can quite understand that he might not have stuck with it.

Especially since we know for a fact that, at least when it came to father-names, the Elves DID repeat names- Finwe named his three sons Finwe, Finwe and Finwe originally! (Later Curufinwe, Nolofinwe and Arafinwe). Curufinwe Fayanaro in turn gave his twin sons the same name, and named his fourth son (Curufin) after himself.