legolas's hair

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Two late essays state that A) Thranduil's household spoke Sindarin but not his Silvan-speaking people, and B) Silvan was no longer spoken in Mirkwood/Lorien by the late Third Age. Pick one.

There is no need to pick only one of these two possibilities as there is no contradiction between them. They speak of different times and different places.

In The War of the Jewels (HoME 11) in the article “Quendi and Eldar”, which Christopher Tolkien dates to 1959–60, there are some mentions of hair colour which you have not quoted though they tend to support you.

The first is from page 382 with bold italics and material in square brackets added by me:

The name [Vanyar] referred to the hair of the Minyar, which was in nearly all members of the clan yellow or deep golden. This was regarded as a beautiful feature by the Ñoldor (who loved gold), though they were themselves mostly dark-haired. Owing to intermarriage the golden hair of the Vanyar sometimes later appeared among the Ñoldor: notably in the case of Finarfin, and in his children Finrod and Galadriel, in whom it came from King Finwë’s second wife, Indis of the Vanyar.

The second is from page 384, again with bold italics added by me:

Elwe himself had indeed long and beautiful hair of silver hue, but this does not seem or have been a common feature of the Sindar, though it was found among them occasionally, especially in the nearer or remoter kin of Elwe (as in the case of Cirdan). In general the Sindar appear to have closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.

These quotations support your idea that the Vanyar were only mostly fair-haired and that the other kindreds were only mostly dark-haired.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by jallanite

[/INDENT]These quotations support your idea that the Vanyar were only mostly fair-haired and that the other kindreds were only mostly dark-haired.

That's actually what I was referencing in my last (hard to see) line: "Of course, in Quendi and Eldar he had the space to state the obvious, which was that these genetic hair markers were only predominant, not universal; in similar wise we speak of Swedes being blonde and Italians dark, but are perfectly well aware that there are dark Swedes and blonde Italians."

[Galin]

** I've asked Carl Hostetter whether there's a note on the meaning of Vanyar which is any earlier than Q&E.

Carl will certainly know better, but we do have a base BAN- in Etymologies from which Q. vanya beautiful and 'Cf. vanima 'fair' (also noting Aragorn's words in Lothlorien about Arwen).

And as far back as the early Qenya Lexicon we have 'vane (i) fair, lovely.' I didn't stumble across anything in these earlier accounts (quick search however) that certainly noted 'pale, light coloured' as we find connected to the Q&E stem WAN (where it's noted that the implication of beauty was secondary).

In Words Phrases And Passages Tolkien notes BAN- 'beauty' and a distinct stem WAN- 'fair-haired (yellow to golden). This was reason for name of the Mindi. But since later Q wanya/vanya, late Q vanya became almost an exact synonym of English 'fair' = just, good, right, prosperous, blessed, fine (weather) -- blond [but it never meant 'moderate, mediocre'] For 'beautiful' late Q used vanya.'

This is probably somewhat connected to Q&E I think. Also see note 4 to Dangweth Pengolodh (Banyai)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Note also the very early negative formation uvanimor "monsters, giants and ogres:" hideous creatures.

And of course Vana the Fair, the wife of Orome, Vala of spring and (strongly implied) of beauty, whose name goes back to the beginning.

But it's no secret that variations on van-, ban- meant "beautiful" for a very long time. I'm interested in the alternative wan- "blonde", and whether it can be found earlier than Q&E... or whether, by contrast, Vanyar when first coined meant "Beautiful Ones"

[Galin]

My guess so far is that WAN- with this meaning (the bases GWAN- and GWAY- also appear in Words, Phrases And Passages, some entries having been deleted however) arose in 1959, 1960, around the same time as Quendi And Eldar.

Tolkien seems to ponder words for beautiful (WPP, base MIR-) while considering van and the fact that Arwen is dark-haired, and appears to answer himself with two bases in this context (here BAN- and GWAN-).

Also the editors for WPP often seem to note earlier or other appearances of a given base, sometimes pointing to QL or Etymologies, but for *WAN they merely note Q&E.

If Christopher Tolkien is correct that Dangweth Pengolodh might date to the early part of the 1950s rather than the later part, the form Banyai -- altered to Vanyar internally by the Elves themselves -- seems to suggest (keeping in mind I'm no linguist) a root BAN- and a possible meaning 'Beautiful Ones' at this point (although it might be added that this footnote does not apear in both versions, if I recall correctly).

Anyway I would be interested in Carl's response, and there could easily be other evidence I'm forgetting or don't have, even if my guess is well enough founded on this much.

[Galin]

Not to derail things, but perhaps as a side topic, I was wondering about the following from The History of the Hobbit. In 'In The Halls Of The Elvenking' (Mr. Baggins part one), P. 407 John Rateliff writes:

'... and there is some evidence that he originally conceived of the Second Kindred or Noldor (the Deep-elves) as golden-haired: in the genealogies meant to accompany the ('Earliest) Annals of Beleriand' [early 1930s] they are referred to as Kuluqendi or 'Golden-elves' (HME V. [403]); the 1937 Quenta Silmarillion includes 'the Golden' as one of their many descriptors (HME V. 215) and Christopher Tolkien notes (BLT I. 43-4, HME XII. 77) that the passage in Appendix F of the first edition of The Lord of the Rings describing the Eldar (the Three Kindreds of the High Elves) as dark haired, 'save in the golden house of Finrod' (i. e., the character known as Finarfin in the published Silmarillion and more recent editions of The Lord of the Rings [cf. LotR. II71]: Galadriel's father not her brother, some of whose children were golden haired because of his Vanyar wife), was written as a description of the Noldor (the Second Kindred) before being applied to the Eldar as a whole'.

Anyway the last example confuses me a bit within the context of the idea raised.

I think the Gnomes in The Book of Lost Tales were given a relationship of sorts to golden light. In The Tale Of The Sun And Moon: 'Now golden light not even the Gods could tame much to their uses, and had suffered it to gather in the great vat Kulullin to the great increase of its fountains (...) 'Tis said indeed that those first makers of jewels, of whom Feanor has the greatest fame, alone of the Eldar knew the secret of subtly taming golden light to their uses, and they dared use their knowledge but very sparingly, and now is that perished with them out of the Earth.'

And the first makers of jewels are the Noldoli: '-- and therefrom did the Noldoli with great labour invent and fashion the first gems' (The Coming Of The Elves)

Well, as far as that goes anyway. And Mr. Rateliff surely knows the contex of the Silmarillion reference to the Noldor as the Golden from HME V, but looking at the other references (extremely edited here to do so), starting with the Lindar/Vanyar: '...they are the fair folk and the White. The Noldor are the Wise, and the Golden (...) The Teleri (...) the Blue Elves, the Pearl-gatherers (...) The Danas (...) the Hidden Elves, the Green-Elves (...)'

And jumping rather notably in the external timeline to Q&E, as posted already it's said that the Noldor loved gold.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But surely he didn't mean that the Teleri had blue hair......

It's very interesting that in pre-LR writing, Tolkien was happy to assign 'ethnic' descriptions to the Edain and the 'swarthy' Easterlings, but not to the Elves (or Dwarves). I can't find anything in the QS/Later Annals/Lhammas writings that can be read as anything but a vaguest stretch assigning physical characteristics to Lindar/Noldor/Lembi.

There is however one passage which might I suppose be read as a "dog that didn't bark." In QS Sec 130 T describes the Houses of Men, and the Beorians "were dark or brown of hair; their eyes were grey, and their faces fair to look upon; shapely they were of form, yet hardy and long-enduring. Their height was no greater than the Elves of that day, and they were most like to the Gnomes, for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift of understanding, long in memory."

That "for" is interesting; because it seems that the comparison to the Noldor here is based entirely on the Beorians' habits of mind, not their coloration.

PS: FWIW, in the QS text of Beren and Luthien, Celegorn expressly has golden hair, so "the fair" in his case really does mean "blonde."