Imagine No Redemption

[Pitchwife]

Interesting thread and discussion, Hookbill & company!

I think Noggins has the right of it above and "Tolkien's particular view of catholicism" has something to do with all this. It was Tolkien's belief that not only we but the world with us are Fallen from grace, a belief which is represented in his legendarium by the concept of Arda Marred (which Legate already mentioned) or "Arda with a Morgoth-ingredient". In such a world, turning from good to bad is always easier than the reverse, because it means moving into the same direction as the tendency of the world itself, whereas turning from bad to good means you have to struggle against the current, so to speak (which, I suppose, is why, according to catholic faith, we're unable to redeem ourselves but need to be redeemed by Christ, which hasn't happened yet in Middle-earth).

Concerning people like Boromir, Isildur and Thorin dying after repenting, I'd suppose that death could be seen as an atonement for their sins, but I'd also suggest a narrative reason for Tolkien to kill them off. Like either Bilbo himself or the translator of his memoirs reflects in The Hobbit:

Now that is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale , and take a deal of telling anyway.

But not only that - I'd say things (and people) changing from one to the other are always more interesting to tell and read than things remaining the same. A character who turns from good to evil and back has exhausted their narrative potential - you can hardly write anything more interesting about them to top that, so they're best written out of the story; and in an adventure story set in a heroic age, how better to accomplish this than by having them slain. (If I may adduce a comparison, George Lucas knew perfectly well that we didn't want to see Father & Son Skywalker reunited re-establishing the Republic happily ever after; what we cared for was the moment when Anakin's love for this son overcame the hold of the dark side on his soul, at the price of his life.)

[Lalwendë]

It's the nature of the world Tolkien created. There is a very omnipotent god, and there are definite rules to be followed. I don't think it reflects his Catholic faith, as a huge part of the faith is to admit to sins and to repent and be absolved. And as already said, Middle-earth is much more harsh. Even those who repent do not live long in grace and in fact often die immediately.

But there's another level of 'redemption' at work in Middle-earth, and touched upon with Galadriel. It's that each person has his/her purpose and must achieve that. The examples I'm thinking of here are Aragorn and Gandalf. Aragorn spends years wandering as a Ranger and trying to achieve his ultimate aim of being the King of a reuinted Gondor. That he cannot marry Arwen until he has achieved this is emblematic of him having a defined 'purpose in life'. Gandalf too is sent over to Middle-earth with a purpose and it is only during the War of the Ring that he fulfills that - it might be a thorny question but I wonder if any of the other wizards ever went back across the sea as Gandalf did?

I'm not sure if this rigidly defined concept of 'destiny' is something Tolkien intended to be a part of Middle-earth, or just a writer's device of creating heroes who must work to achieve something. But in Middle-earth it's not simply a case of hoping to be redeened for your sins, you have to achieve your purpose in life in order to attain real grace.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I'm not sure if this rigidly defined concept of 'destiny' is something Tolkien intended to be a part of Middle-earth, or just a writer's device of creating heroes who must work to achieve something. But in Middle-earth it's not simply a case of hoping to be redeened for your sins, you have to achieve your purpose in life in order to attain real grace.

By all accounts this can define Radagast. Tolkien does a careful job at telling us Radagast is not evil. He is not Saruman, only played by Saruman, and helps Gandalf out in a few difficult situations. However, he did not achieve his purpose, and in the end, he failed his purpose.

Definitely harsh for Radagast who is more environmentally and animal-loving conscious than the other wizards, but nope...still fails.

Gandalf was willing to have nearly the whole of Middle-earth destroyed if it meant destroying the Ring. You heard what he was saying to Denethor, not caring if Gondor is in ruins and all that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

By all accounts this can define Radagast. Tolkien does a careful job at telling us Radagast is not evil. He is not Saruman, only played by Saruman, and helps Gandalf out in a few difficult situations. However, he did not achieve his purpose, and in the end, he failed his purpose.

Definitely harsh for Radagast who is more environmentally and animal-loving conscious than the other wizards, but nope...still fails.

There is, however, one aspect I see to it. Note that Radagast did not seem unhappy or anything. I think he did not care very much that he would not return to Valinor. His story looks quite simple: He is sent on a mission to stop Sauron, he goes, he discovers Middle-Earth's rich fauna and flora, falls in love with it, and instead of focusing on his mission he spends his days rejoicing over the beauty of nature on the edges of Mirkwood, with maybe an occassional event of saving a tree from Orc warbands, saving a squirrel from spiders, or sending an eagle to Orthanc if need be. I think at least at this point (we of course are not told what he was thinking by the end of the War of the Ring, but I am just guessing based on the overall depiction of his Third Age attitude) he did not really wish to return to Valinor yet. So had they told him "you have done well, come with us to the ship", he might have even refused, or at least hesitated to leave his wonderful local zoo. Especially since it had just been liberated.

I envision Radagast's future keeping his secret enclave in the wilderness deep into the Fourth Age, and who knows, maybe beyond, but perhaps until the point when the Dominion of Men comes with chainsaws and bulldozers and he becomes sick of the world, maybe then he will seek passage to the West, just like the Elves did. Maybe his chance would have come in the Fourth Age already, perhaps he would stop some new rising shadow then and thus fulfil his wizardly duty in his own time, and in his own time he would return.

I cannot help to also think of what I have said about Galadriel - I think Radagast might have had to wait for a similar development of events, wait until he himself realises his purpose and reevaluates his original attitude, when he gets tired of playing with animals and takes some responsibility (be it for the animals and plants, or be it for Men, or for whatever else - the point is, I believe for Radagast, even the interest in nature is originally just a game, not any responsibility. I think responsibility of any kind is what Radagast lacks - I mean, responsibility as "program". He is certainly good-hearted, which makes him react in the right ways to his fellow Wizards' need or to fellow creatures' need, but he would not go and dutifully spend his days checking the borders of Mirkwood for Orcs - he would do so only if he knew his fellow family of badgers was threatened, but not with any "planning" or such).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

There is, however, one aspect I see to it. Note that Radagast did not seem unhappy or anything. I think he did not care very much that he would not return to Valinor. His story looks quite simple: He is sent on a mission to stop Sauron, he goes, he discovers Middle-Earth's rich fauna and flora, falls in love with it, and instead of focusing on his mission he spends his days rejoicing over the beauty of nature on the edges of Mirkwood, with maybe an occassional event of saving a tree from Orc warbands, saving a squirrel from spiders, or sending an eagle to Orthanc if need be.

Radgast the Brown is an interesting case in the context of this thread, and this has caused me to re-examine my thoughts of him.

Ragagast did indeed "fail" in the task set before him and his Istari cohorts, in that he "went native", and forgot the higher purpose that was supposed to have been his focus.
However, as I recall other threads here discussing at times, his actions, relating to his apparently being chosen to go along to Middle-earth by Yavanna, as a representative of her interests, could have been foreseen by the Valar.
I wonder what would have happened if his failure hadn't occurred; if he had been involved with the White Council, planning strategies for defeating Sauron with them, Gandalf, and Saruman. Would Saruman in time have been able to wheedle or, if need be, cow Radagast into serving Saruman's increasingly self-serving policies? How much of a factor could Radagast have been in aiding Saruman to locate the Ring? Was it in fact better that he apparently lost a good deal of interest in the fight against Sauron?
With that in mind, especially as his fall was not a result of any evil intent, would repentance for Radagast have been necessary?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Radgast the Brown is an interesting case in the context of this thread, and this has caused me to re-examine my thoughts of him.

Ragagast did indeed "fail" in the task set before him and his Istari cohorts, in that he "went native", and forgot the higher purpose that was supposed to have been his focus.
However, as I recall other threads here discussing at times, his actions, relating to his apparently being chosen to go along to Middle-earth by Yavanna, as a representative of her interests, could have been foreseen by the Valar.
I wonder what would have happened if his failure hadn't occurred; if he had been involved with the White Council, planning strategies for defeating Sauron with them, Gandalf, and Saruman. Would Saruman in time have been able to wheedle or, if need be, cow Radagast into serving Saruman's increasingly self-serving policies? How much of a factor could Radagast have been in aiding Saruman to locate the Ring? Was it in fact better that he apparently lost a good deal of interest in the fight against Sauron?
With that in mind, especially as his fall was not a result of any evil intent, would repentance for Radagast have been necessary?

The fact that Radagast was in Yavanna's service actually brings up another matter. By definition, we really don't know what happened to the blue wizards, except that Tolkein say's he "fears" they fell (i.e. somehow became corrupted, as Saruman was) Specifically, nothing is said of whether they died or not, which leaves the possibility that they are still out there somewhere. Even if Tolkien was wrong and they were not corrupted (i.e. they "failed" only in the sense that they were unable to turn the hearts of the men of the east against Sauron) there does remain the fact that each Istari does take a large measure of his attitude and methods, from the Valar he personallly serves, and by nature that "stain" does effect the ministrations they give, and by extenstion the form a world aided by them would become. They all have the same mission, but how they would go about it would not neccearily take the same from For example, in some bizarre world where 1. Saruman had NOT become corrupted and 2. I was he, and not Gandalf, who wound up taking center stage in the deafeat of Sauron, I would imagine that that, since he is of Aule, defeat of Sauron would have come largely through mechanical methods; making a free people who could literally "out tech" Sauron (a tough order given that Sauron himself is originally one of Aule's servant's but possibly not impossible). In one where Radagast was the champion, you would likey have wound up with a fourth age that was extremely naturalistic, the great cities abandoned, most tools abandones and forgotten, and what free people remailend living in small hunter gatherer communities. So one would assume that the natures of Alatar and Pallando would take a large measure from the fact that they are in the service of Orome, the Huntsman. With them still possibly around and the fact that there are two of them (i.e. twice the ability to pass on thier form of the message) I'm wondering if Ragast went native for fear that if he didn't the natural world would be destroyed (either by Alatar and Pallando driving manking to extol in the hunt so greatly they literally hunted ME bare or Saruman (by convincing the people of ME that the natural word held no value outside of raw materials) The intial love would still be Radagasts own nature, but the decison to turn from his path may have been for reasons more complex than simply that. I even think it slightly possible that, given how intent Yavanna was in making sure her interests were protectect, Radagast may have been instucted to turn from his path on purpose , to fail his great mission (and give up his chance of returning) intentionally so as to serve the lesser more personal mission that a child of Yavanna would be inclined to, and not to swerve back all the way save at very great need (Say, if Gandalf had fallen permanently (i.e. not come back) and Radagast was literally left as the ONLY Ishtari left to stand against Sauron.)

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

A character who turns from good to evil and back has exhausted their narrative potential - you can hardly write anything more interesting about them to top that, so they're best written out of the story; and in an adventure story set in a heroic age, how better to accomplish this than by having them slain.

I think this is probably the issue. There don't seem to be any characters that start out evil, depending on how you count orcs. An orc turning good would have been a bit odd, I suppose. So you're stuck, in a narrative sense.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But in Middle-earth it's not simply a case of hoping to be redeemed for your sins, you have to achieve your purpose in life in order to attain real grace.

Which, I suppose, would make the 'failing' of the wizards more profound. They 'knew' their purpose, or at least had an idea of their general mission, and only one of them actually seemed to care enough to carry it through. I suppose they all started out fully intending to fight Sauron, but one thing after another drove it out of their minds.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Definitely harsh for Radagast who is more environmentally and animal-loving conscious than the other wizards, but nope...still fails.

Failing and falling aren't always the same, really. And I think Radagast is the perfect example to look at in some detail on this point. He failed, but did he 'fall'?

Originally Posted by Letters of JRR Tolkien #156

"The wizards were not exempt, indeed being incarnate were more likely to stray or err. Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement)."
(Emphasis mine)

The use of 'fully' here is an interesting one. Perhaps Tolkien didn't want to call Radagast a complete failure as he clearly had no ill intent and indeed was willing to help, his biggest failings being trusting the wrong people (though even Gandalf trusted Saruman, so perhaps he is guilty of the same 'mistakes of judgement'), and a shift of priorities to the birds and animals rather than the sentient peoples.
Indeed, as I've read around the subject of Radagast, I do get the impression Tolkien was not quite sure what to do with the fellow. In The History of Middle Earth Part 7, 'The Treason of Isengard, in the fourth chapter as Tolkien struggles to get Gandalf away to see Saruman, he introduces Radagast to 'solve the problem', as it were. CT gives an endnote;

Originally Posted by HoME7 The Treason of Isengard Chapter 4 endnote 15

"Radagast as been named, but no more, in previous texts (VI 379, 397) and with no indication of what part my father was envisaging for him."

Poor Radagast got roped into the narrative, and such seems his actual role, being roped into helping Saruman. His 'betrayal' of Gandalf was unintentional, as was his 'betrayal' of Saruman (inadvertently giving Gandalf a means of escape). He bumbles his way through his 'task', so I fear Tolkien couldn't quite bring himself to be too harsh on him.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Note that Radagast did not seem unhappy or anything

However, another point to consider is the only scene in which Radagast appears there is a great sense of his unease. Perhaps he is uneasy at the news, the dark times, or the fact that he has a job to do at all.

Originally Posted by The Fellowship of the Ring, Book 2, chapter 2: The Council of Elrond

"It was Radagast the Brown, who at one time dwelt at Rhosgobel, near the boarders of Mirkwood. He is one of my order, but I had not seen him in many a year.
...
'...You were never a traveller, unless driven by great need.' [said Gandalf]
'I have an urgent errand,' [Radagast] said. 'My news is evil.' Then he looked about him, as if the hedges might have ears. 'Nasgul,' he whispered.
...
Radagast is, of course, a worthy wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends.
...
And with that he mounted and would have ridden straight off.
...
and [Radagast] rode off as if the Nine were after him."

A note on something Tolkien adds in an earlier draft...

Originally Posted by HoME7 The Treason of Isengard Chapter 6, The Council of Elrond

"And with that [Radagast] he mounted and rode off without another word - and that seemed to me very strange."

Here Gandalf notes that Radagast's haste to depart is strange. I wonder how strange, and in what way. Is it out of character for him? Another endnote (where Radagast seems to spend a lot of his time) makes for interesting reading...

Originally Posted by HoME7 The Treason of Isengard Chapter 6, The Council of Elrond, endnote 30

"... it is seen from the addition that Radagast first entered the story as the means by which Gandalf was lured to Saruman's dwelling. The abrupt haste of Radagast's departure seemed to Gandalf 'very strange', and it is possible that when first drafting the story my father supposed that Radagast's part was not simply that of innocent emissary: later, at Isengard, Saruman says 'He must have played his part well, nonetheless'. This is not in FR. When the addition here was made, Radagast became also the means by which the Eagles knew where to find Gandalf; and this development necessarily disposed of the idea that Radagast had been corrupted..."

So Radagast was not corrupted. Saruman may have been right, he was simply foolish. He had nothing to 'repent' of, as such.
Though I'm now slightly curious about the mentions of Rhosgobel as being Radagast's 'former' residents. Presumably he moved after the... incident... with the Necromancer. He was never much of a traveller, so presumably he has a new house. I hope it was a nice house.

Anyway, I get the impression Tolkien did not consider Radagast a complete failure, and, indeed, initially planned to reward him!

Originally Posted by HoME7 The Treason of Isengard, Chapter 11, The Story Foreseen from Moria

"Isengard is given over to the Dwarves... Or to Radagast?"

Personally, I think that would have been brilliant, for Radagast to end up with this gigantic tower. He'd probably turn it into a massive greenhouse.
However, ultimately, Radagast seems to be regarded as a bit dim by those on the evil side, so perhaps they saw him as not worth turning...

Originally Posted by HoME10, Morgoth's Ring, Part five - Myths Transformed, note on motives

"But certainly he [Sauron] had already become evil, and therefore stupid enough to imagine that his [Gandalf's] different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence, and lack of firm, masterful purpose. He was only a rather clever Radagast - clever, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals."

Radagast 'failed' in the sense that he did not "remain faithful".

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales - Part 4, Chapter 2 The Istari

Indeed, of all the Istari, one only remained faithful, and he was the last-comer. For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle Earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures.

I don't know if you can call Radagast a 'fallen' character, and certainly not evil. He seems vaguely good, but mostly neutral. He doesn't commit to either side. He doesn't openly fight Sauron unless given strict orders. He doesn't really help the enemy except by accident, and the same accident repays it, though who knows if he ever knew it?

Originally Posted by Inziladun

However, as I recall other threads here discussing at times, his actions, relating to his apparently being chosen to go along to Middle-earth by Yavanna, as a representative of her interests, could have been foreseen by the Valar.

I can buy this. Although, Tolkien seems to suggest that he 'failed' or 'forsook' the task set before him. unless Yavanna had given him a secondary task which he then took as his main task. But he was 'enamoured' of Middle Earth. Interestingly, he found Middle Earth more enamouring than Valinor. Perhaps it was all too clean and neat over there for his liking. I always imagined him being a bit shabby-looking.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

For example, in some bizarre world where 1. Saruman had NOT become corrupted and 2. I was he, and not Gandalf, who wound up taking center stage in the deafeat of Sauron, I would imagine that that, since he is of Aule, defeat of Sauron would have come largely through mechanical methods; making a free people who could literally "out tech" Sauron (a tough order given that Sauron himself is originally one of Aule's servant's but possibly not impossible).

Interesting notion. Aule wasn't good at having none-evil maiar, was he?
Though it does make me wonder why there was so little interaction between Saruman and the Dwarves. Perhaps there was and it is not mentioned; Saruman wanted to learn about Ringcraft, so perhaps he talked to the Dwarves and tried to find some of their Rings of power?

Going back to a 'fallen' character, here's a thing I stumbled upon; in an earlier plan, Tolkien asks...

Originally Posted by HoME7 The Treason of Isengard Chapter 11, The Story Foreseen from Moria

"What about Boromir? Does he repent? No - slain by Aragorn."

Tolkien paints Boromir as someone who needed to 'repent'. His character was in such need that he almost had him killed by Aragorn, becoming such a threat to the Fellowship, perhaps, that he had to be stopped.