Two Questions about Gandalf in the Undying Lands

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

So my question is as follows; once the boat got to Tol Erresea, do you think Gandalf stayed around there for a while (defined as "until Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gimi died) or did he immediately head off for Aman itself. On one hand, he might stick around so that the hobbits and gimli wold have some familar faces around.

I don't see an issue with Gandalf traveling back and forth from Aman to Eressëa as he pleased. As you note, Gandalf was in a different category than any other of the ship's passengers, and he could presumably keep the hobbits and Gimli company as long as their natural lives endured.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

(I still maintain that Elrond, Gadriel, Gandalf and two hobbits is a rather small crew to sail a grey havens boat (especially as neither hobbit probably knows much of sailing) (Yes, Legolas manages with a crew of two, but he built his boat so he probably bult a smaller one than an official "grey havens special" so I think they may have been other elves on the boat of lesser importance (members of Elronds, Galdriels and Cirdan's courts also making the journey) to do the actual crew work.

I think you're right. The reader isn't told the total number on board the ship, and I always for the idea that Elrond, Gandalf, et. al, were not required or expected to contribute to the actual sailing tasks.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

2. Once he gets to the Undying lands, does Gandalf stay....well....Gandalf. The Unfished Tales say the Ishatri came to Middle Earth in the guise of old men, which seems to indicate that that is not their default appearance (I know maiar can shapeshif in thier non-incarnate state, but the meetings between them and the rest of the people seem to indicate that most have some body form that is a preferred "default" one. Presumaby, now that Gandalfs mission is over, and he is no longer under the strictures of the mission, he is no longer obligated to keep that form. So do you think he does. I can sort of imagine him keeping it as long as Frodo and Bilbo are around, for the same reason I stated above for him possibly sticking around Tol Erresea, so they have something familar. But has Gandalf gotten so used to being Gandalf that that is how he will stay, or will he turn back into whatever he looked like when he was Olorin?

Well, we are told in The Silmarillion that the Valar and Maia were capable of presenting themselves in any form, or in no perceivable form, at all. The difference with the Istari in Middle-earth was that they were bound to permanently inhabit those bodies while there. After Gandalf's return to the West, he should have no longer been subject to that rule.

[blantyr]

I've always presumed that Radagast -- along with Bombadil, Goldberry, Shelob and other odd beings of great power -- were left alone.

I'll note that in Saruman's case, a shape of mist formed over the body, looked west, but was dismissed with a cold wind. I think this left Saruman, like Sauron, as a spirit of malice unable to take shape again. I'd like to think Radagast would be accepted, that should he die he would be allowed to return over the seas and take another shape. He might not have been as aggressive as Gandalf in fighting Sauron, but he was no traitor.

No one is sure where to tuck Bombadil and Goldberry, but I wouldn't be shocked if they had that option too, or if they just continued to dance and sing though the Fourth Age.

But we don't know.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I've always presumed that Radagast -- along with Bombadil, Goldberry, Shelob and other odd beings of great power -- were left alone.

I'll note that in Saruman's case, a shape of mist formed over the body, looked west, but was dismissed with a cold wind. I think this left Saruman, like Sauron, as a spirit of malice unable to take shape again. I'd like to think Radagast would be accepted, that should he die he would be allowed to return over the seas and take another shape. He might not have been as aggressive as Gandalf in fighting Sauron, but he was no traitor.

No one is sure where to tuck Bombadil and Goldberry, but I wouldn't be shocked if they had that option too, or if they just continued to dance and sing though the Fourth Age.

But we don't know.

I can accept that fate for all of them, except possibly Shelob, who, unlike all of the others, represents a very real, palpable danger to people (I had always assumed that, as part of any attempts to "restore" Mordor somebody (If not Aragorn himself, then possibly Eldarion or if they reached sufficent might, the people of Nurn) might (as soon as they were no longer needed for more pressing restorative matters) have sent a large consort of very well trained, very well armored, very well equipped with lights knighs specifcally to track down and slay Shelob, and so clear the Cirith Ungol Pass (leaving it as is not only means leaving Shelob free to potenially prowl munching on travelers (with no orc sacrafices to feed her, hunger might lead her to leave her lair to hunt at night) but a back door open for anyone to pass in (Mordors secutrity problems remain the same no matter who is actually in power))

[blantyr]

A Shelob hunt would be a pure noble and appropriate task. Very glorious.

Alas, I'm not feeling any great need for additional glory. I'll let you handle that one.

[Mumriken]

2. Once he gets to the Undying lands, does Gandalf stay....well....Gandalf. The Unfished Tales say the Ishatri came to Middle Earth in the guise of old men, which seems to indicate that that is not their default appearance (I know maiar can shapeshif in thier non-incarnate state, but the meetings between them and the rest of the people seem to indicate that most have some body form that is a preferred "default" one. Presumaby, now that Gandalfs mission is over, and he is no longer under the strictures of the mission, he is no longer obligated to keep that form. So do you think he does. I can sort of imagine him keeping it as long as Frodo and Bilbo are around, for the same reason I stated above for him possibly sticking around Tol Erresea, so they have something familar. But has Gandalf gotten so used to being Gandalf that that is how he will stay, or will he turn back into whatever he looked like when he was Olorin?

I imagine Gandalf would change his form into a younger more energetic form. He loved hobbits, and it wouldn't suprise me if he took the form of a hobbit, just like Aule did when he settled in the old forest.

I've always presumed that Radagast -- along with Bombadil, Goldberry, Shelob and other odd beings of great power -- were left alone.

Radagast was probably allowed back, Bombadil and Tom are most likely Valar and so they could do as they pleased. Shelob was just a spider...xD

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

I imagine Gandalf would change his form into a younger more energetic form. He loved hobbits, and it wouldn't suprise me if he took the form of a hobbit, just like Aule did when he settled in the old forest.

I don't know that I buy Bombadil as Aulë, but that's another thread.

It seems to me much more likely that Gandalf would have appeared, to the hobbits at least, just as he did in Middle-earth.
If he indeed, as I think, wasn't bound to any particular form and could change at will, why not keep on the "clothing" with which his friends were familiar?

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Radagast was probably allowed back, Bombadil and Tom are most likely Valar and so they could do as they pleased. Shelob was just a spider...xD

I haven't the time for searching at the moment, but I recall a very good thread here about the fate of Radagast in the not too distant past. If I think of it later, I'll edit it in here.
Basically, Radagast, to my mind, failed in his primary task, since it was said the ultimate mission of the Istari was to rally Middle-earth against Sauron. Radagast instead got caught up in flora and fauna. He was probably allowed back to the West eventually (if he even wanted to return, that is).

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't know that I buy Bombadil as Aulë, but that's another thread.

It seems to me much more likely that Gandalf would have appeared, to the hobbits at least, just as he did in Middle-earth.
If he indeed, as I think, wasn't bound to any particular form and could change at will, why not keep on the "clothing" with which his friends were familiar?

It sort of depends on how "accurate" the clothing was. In other words, did Gandalf in his Middle earth guise merely look like an old man, or since it was an incarnate body, would he also feel like an old man. It is mentioned that the only thing that aged the Ishtari was the rigors of their labors, but Gandalf's labors were pretty rigorus (not to mention that, if the UT tales chapter is taken as canon, Gandalf came in a form much older than any of the other Istari right off the bat. They all have staffs, but Gandalf is the only one specifcally described as NEEDING one to get around.) If the latter, I can imagine Gandalf, once he was permitted to do so, might very well at least take on the form of a somewhat younger man; one free of whatever aches and pains the age of his "Greycloak" incarnation plauged him with. He could still look enough like his old self to be recognizable to his friends as Gandalf, just a healthier, fitter, more nimble Gandalf.