Hobbit2 - Chapter 07 - Queer Lodgings - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-25-2012, 02:13 AM

The two major aspects of this chapter are Gandalf's announcement that he will be leaving the group - which reminds me of "The Scouring of the Shire" - and a new host, Beorn. The latter is a subject of much discussion and speculation among fans - do you see the skin-changer as a fairytale character who doesn't fit into the later tales, despite Tolkien's integration of his people in LotR?

There is also a Dwarven poem which doesn't seem to be as widely known or popular as "Far under the Misty Mountains". What do you think of "The wind was on the withered heath..."?

I can't help but wonder if Beorn and his "talking" animals will fit into Jackson's movie. They do seem uncharacteristic for Middle-earth; I've thought of them as an imported bit of Narnia. Tolkien doesn't Disnify them; however, they are in the position of servants to their (semi-) human master.

I'm trying to remember if this is the only outright vegetarian we meet in Middle-earth. Can you think of another?

Here's the previous discussion.

Galadriel55 · 06-26-2012, 12:15 PM

I found the little exchange between Bilbo and the Eagle to be amusing. Some like flying, and some like warm baths and food. I think that Bilbo missed a once-in-a-lifetime opportynity when he shut his eyes and didn't try to enjoy that flight! I guess he would have thought so too, soaking in a warm bath or eating breakfast.

Gandalf becomes the sly old fox with Beorn. And the Dwarves unwittingly put up such a show of being "at your service" that this chapter becomes one of those comedy breaks in between the intense action. I was chuckling to myself when I read the chapter, and I'm sure any kid who reads it would be laughing.

Beorn's deep hatred for Goblins and Wargs is respectable, though. Not comic relief at all.

I'm not sure about all the talking animals, but there was an article that I saw a long time ago about a goat being used as part of his household. The goat's coat had splashes of red and blue dye on it, and one horn was crooked, or something like that. If I can find that news article again I'll link it here.

jallanite · 06-30-2012, 10:10 PM

Beorn’s animal servants have always seemed very fitting to me, like something I have encountered in a genuine folktale. Yet I have not discovered any such folktale.

Of course, in the Odyssey, Book 10, on Circe’s island Eurylochos and his men, and later Odysseus alone, encounter outside of Circe’s palace lions and wolves that fawn on them as though the beasts were tamed. These are explained as men turned into the form of beasts by Circe.

But that is not very close.

John Rateliff in his The History of The Hobbit, Chapter VII, “Medwed”, strongly suggests that here Tolkien is borrowing from the tales of Doctor Dolittle by Hugh Lofting, a series of books owned by the Tolkiens and much enjoyed by the Tolkien children. In these books Doctor Dolittle is a naturalist who has learned the various languages of animals so that he can communicate with them. Some animals live with him and serve the function of servants and are also his friends.

This is a wonderful series of books, in my opinion. Unfortunately the version now being sold are censored versions, supposedly for racism, but that doesn’t account for a respectful mention of Charles Darwin being suppressed.

For the earliest books in the series (now in public domain and uncensored) see http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/501 ,
http://www.gutenberg.ca/ebooks/lofti...post-00-h.html ,
http://gutenberg.ca/ebooks-australia.../0607841h.html , and
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1154 .

Beorn is borrowed from the Icelandic Hrólfs saga Kraka (“Hrólf Kraki’s Saga”). See http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/Hrolf%20Kraki.htm , beginning at chapter 24 for the part dealing with Björn (= Beorn). Such adaptation as has occurred is very, very free, just the use of the name and the idea of a man turning into a bear. But this tale is well worth reading on its own.

One sees here that source criticism often does not reveal very much. I imagine that Tolkien invented a werebear mainly from his own imagination and named him Medwed. The well-known Icelandic story of Björn was only one of many things in the background. Later Tolkien decided that the Old English name Beorn was better, as it was considered to be equivalent to Old Norse Björn because of similarity of sound, although the Old English form Beorn means ‘man, prince, warrior’ and is cognate with baron while the Old Norse Bjǫrn or Björn means ‘bear’. To say that Tolkien’s character Beorn derives from the Icelandic character Bjǫrn over-simplifies to the point of being inaccurate.

I do not think that a skin-changer who can take on a bear’s shape at all unfitting for Tolkien’s later writing where he wrote of Tom Bombadil and Treebeard. Werewolves are mentioned in a number of places in The Silmarillion and a werebear is at least no more juvenile in conception.

That the story of Tolkien’s Beorn remains untold is one of the things that makes it interesting. In The Hobbit we have not fallen just into a single tale, but into a whole world and we are only being shown a small part of it.

Morthoron · 07-01-2012, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallanite

Beorn’s animal servants have always seemed very fitting to me, like something I have encountered in a genuine folktale. Yet I have not discovered any such folktale.

There are a variety of folktales that have animal servants as a motif, Jailinite, and certainly ones that Tolkien would be aware of. The famous Slavic folktale "Baba Yaga", comes to mind, or, more importantly, "The Grateful Beasts" which Andrew Lang included in his The Yellow Fairy Book (in which bees figure prominently). Tolkien most certainly had read Lang, noting him as an influence, and Tolkien's "On Fairy Stories" was given in 1939 as part of the Andrew Lang Lecture Series. You could also throw in "The Two Brothers" collected by the Brothers Grimm as well.

I do think you are correct regarding the Björn/Beorn analogy, and Tolkien, as he had done countless times in his corpus, grafts motifs from several tales into a synthesis which seems both old and refreshingly new. Another consideration might be the anthropomorphism found in the medieval Reynard the Fox and in the Greek Aesop's Fables.

jallanite · 07-01-2012, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

There are a variety of folktales that have animal servants as a motif, Jailinite, and certainly ones that Tolkien would be aware of. The famous Slavic folktale "Baba Yaga", comes to mind, or, more importantly, "The Grateful Beasts" which Andrew Lang included in his The Yellow Fairy Book (in which bees figure prominently).

I am aware of many folktales where beasts at some point serve or aid the protagonist of the tales. What I am not aware of is a folktale in which a host has animal servants who also serve the guest(s). The example of Circe I provided was that closest that I find. I would welcome any such tale that anyone could provide.

Morthoron · 07-01-2012, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallanite

I am aware of many folktales where beasts at some point serve or aid the protagonist of the tales. What I am not aware of is a folktale in which a host has animal servants who also serve the guest(s). The example of Circe I provided was that closest that I find. I would welcome any such tale that anyone could provide.

I am not at all certain why one should require a direct motif with such specificity. The incidences of anthropomorphic animals serving mortals is there, can we not allow Tolkien some of his own creativity? In a certain story regarding Baba Yaga, a maid who treats the witch's animal servants kindly, is served well by them in return:

Quote:

The witch rushed into the hut and saw that the girl was gone. She gave the cat a good beating and scolded her for not scratching out the girl's eyes. But the cat answered her, "I've served you for years, yet you've never even given me a bone, but she gave me some ham." Baba Yaga then turned on the dogs, the gates, the birch-tree and the serving-maid, and set to thrashing and scolding them all. But the dogs said to her, "We've served you for years, yet you've never even thrown us a burnt crust, but she gave us fresh rolls." And the gates said, "We've served you for years, yet you've never even poured water on our hinges, but she oiled them for us." And the birch-tree said, "I've served you for years, yet you've never even tied me up with thread, but she tied me with a ribbon." And the serving-maid said, "I've served you for years, yet you've never even given me a rag, but she gave me a kerchief."

If you need specifics, simply page through Alice's Adventures in Wonderland or Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There for anthropomorphic creatures and objects who both serve and are served. Tolkien references both of these works by "Dodgson" (ie., Lewis Carroll) in a post-script to Letter 15 (To Allen & Unwin), dated 31 August 1937. Tolkien also makes it a point in the same letter not to read too much into The Hobbit's usage of Anglo-Saxon and Icelandic nomenclature:

Quote:

...neither used with antiquarian accuracy, and both regretfully substituted to avoid abstruseness for the genuine alphabets and names of the mythology into which Mr. Baggins intrudes...

Tolkien gleaned many ideas from other sources, but the instances where they are ultra-specific are few (Turin's similarities with Kullervo, for instance).

One might also look to George MacDonald, who influenced both Lewis Carroll and Tolkien, and his anthropomorphic creatures and their relationship with people (usually children). Much like Tolkien found the seminal idea for warg-riding in MacDonald's "Uglies", the servants of the Goblins, so too could Tolkien draw the images of shapeshifting people (sometimes ravens or leopards, for instance) from MacDonald's books at a much younger age than when he began studying Icelandic sagas. The germ of an idea was already there.

In any case, Tolkien composed personal myths from fragments of old folktales, ancient myths and literature he read as a boy. The marvel is his synthesis and regeneration of the shards into a whole.

jallanite · 07-01-2012, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In any case, Tolkien composed personal myths from fragments of old folktales, ancient myths and literature he read as a boy. The marvel is his synthesis and regeneration of the shards into a whole.

I agree with this totally.

I am quite satisfied that Tolkien may be the only author who ever told a tale in which the host has animal servants without bringing in a special point in which the kindness of the protagonist is contrasted with the laxness of the host.

Yet I have also long felt that I have read some such tale. Perhaps not.

Bellamira · 07-31-2012, 10:59 AM

What about the dwarves' song?

Is is about the West Wind? Why is it so bleak? Is it the nature of the dwarves, or of the landscape they are talking about, or is it the wind itself?

Does it simply mean that winter is coming (non-metaphorically), but soon will depart and lead to a new spring?

Is it a history/prophesy of Morgoth/Sauron coming out of the West and then his eventual passing from the world, conquered by the Valar represented by the lighting up of the stars (Varda, whom Morgoth most feared)?

06-25-2012, 02:13 AM	#1
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Hobbit2 - Chapter 07 - Queer Lodgings The two major aspects of this chapter are Gandalf's announcement that he will be leaving the group - which reminds me of "The Scouring of the Shire" - and a new host, Beorn. The latter is a subject of much discussion and speculation among fans - do you see the skin-changer as a fairytale character who doesn't fit into the later tales, despite Tolkien's integration of his people in LotR? There is also a Dwarven poem which doesn't seem to be as widely known or popular as "Far under the Misty Mountains". What do you think of "The wind was on the withered heath..."? I can't help but wonder if Beorn and his "talking" animals will fit into Jackson's movie. They do seem uncharacteristic for Middle-earth; I've thought of them as an imported bit of Narnia. Tolkien doesn't Disnify them; however, they are in the position of servants to their (semi-) human master. I'm trying to remember if this is the only outright vegetarian we meet in Middle-earth. Can you think of another? Here's the previous discussion. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-26-2012, 12:15 PM	#2
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,453	I found the little exchange between Bilbo and the Eagle to be amusing. Some like flying, and some like warm baths and food. I think that Bilbo missed a once-in-a-lifetime opportynity when he shut his eyes and didn't try to enjoy that flight! I guess he would have thought so too, soaking in a warm bath or eating breakfast. Gandalf becomes the sly old fox with Beorn. And the Dwarves unwittingly put up such a show of being "at your service" that this chapter becomes one of those comedy breaks in between the intense action. I was chuckling to myself when I read the chapter, and I'm sure any kid who reads it would be laughing. Beorn's deep hatred for Goblins and Wargs is respectable, though. Not comic relief at all. I'm not sure about all the talking animals, but there was an article that I saw a long time ago about a goat being used as part of his household. The goat's coat had splashes of red and blue dye on it, and one horn was crooked, or something like that. If I can find that news article again I'll link it here. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

06-30-2012, 10:10 PM	#3
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	Beorn’s animal servants have always seemed very fitting to me, like something I have encountered in a genuine folktale. Yet I have not discovered any such folktale. Of course, in the Odyssey, Book 10, on Circe’s island Eurylochos and his men, and later Odysseus alone, encounter outside of Circe’s palace lions and wolves that fawn on them as though the beasts were tamed. These are explained as men turned into the form of beasts by Circe. But that is not very close. John Rateliff in his The History of The Hobbit, Chapter VII, “Medwed”, strongly suggests that here Tolkien is borrowing from the tales of Doctor Dolittle by Hugh Lofting, a series of books owned by the Tolkiens and much enjoyed by the Tolkien children. In these books Doctor Dolittle is a naturalist who has learned the various languages of animals so that he can communicate with them. Some animals live with him and serve the function of servants and are also his friends. This is a wonderful series of books, in my opinion. Unfortunately the version now being sold are censored versions, supposedly for racism, but that doesn’t account for a respectful mention of Charles Darwin being suppressed. For the earliest books in the series (now in public domain and uncensored) see http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/501 , http://www.gutenberg.ca/ebooks/lofti...post-00-h.html , http://gutenberg.ca/ebooks-australia.../0607841h.html , and http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1154 . Beorn is borrowed from the Icelandic Hrólfs saga Kraka (“Hrólf Kraki’s Saga”). See http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/Hrolf%20Kraki.htm , beginning at chapter 24 for the part dealing with Björn (= Beorn). Such adaptation as has occurred is very, very free, just the use of the name and the idea of a man turning into a bear. But this tale is well worth reading on its own. One sees here that source criticism often does not reveal very much. I imagine that Tolkien invented a werebear mainly from his own imagination and named him Medwed. The well-known Icelandic story of Björn was only one of many things in the background. Later Tolkien decided that the Old English name Beorn was better, as it was considered to be equivalent to Old Norse Björn because of similarity of sound, although the Old English form Beorn means ‘man, prince, warrior’ and is cognate with baron while the Old Norse Bjǫrn or Björn means ‘bear’. To say that Tolkien’s character Beorn derives from the Icelandic character Bjǫrn over-simplifies to the point of being inaccurate. I do not think that a skin-changer who can take on a bear’s shape at all unfitting for Tolkien’s later writing where he wrote of Tom Bombadil and Treebeard. Werewolves are mentioned in a number of places in The Silmarillion and a werebear is at least no more juvenile in conception. That the story of Tolkien’s Beorn remains untold is one of the things that makes it interesting. In The Hobbit we have not fallen just into a single tale, but into a whole world and we are only being shown a small part of it. Last edited by jallanite; 07-01-2012 at 12:39 PM.

07-31-2012, 10:59 AM	#8
Bellamira Newly Deceased Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 3	What about the dwarves' song? Is is about the West Wind? Why is it so bleak? Is it the nature of the dwarves, or of the landscape they are talking about, or is it the wind itself? Does it simply mean that winter is coming (non-metaphorically), but soon will depart and lead to a new spring? Is it a history/prophesy of Morgoth/Sauron coming out of the West and then his eventual passing from the world, conquered by the Valar represented by the lighting up of the stars (Varda, whom Morgoth most feared)?