Which Names Were Worth "1,000 Mail-Clad Knights?

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I think the "names... worth more than a thousand mail-clad knights apiece" are Gandalf, Aragorn [who I believe is very like the Dunedain in Elendil's time and at that time none of Sauron's forces could stand before those Dunedain], and perhaps the sons of Elrond. I do not think much more. I will not include the Dunedain of the north nor those of the south...

Especially considering that Gandalf's statement about "Names worth ..." deals more with Sauron's perception that with who could actually fight with the force of 1000 knights.

Thus, for example, we need not consider the actual abilities of, say, Legolas & Gimli but rather ask whether they had established a sufficient reputation IN SAURON'S PERCEPTION that he would think they were that valuable. Thus, about all that Sauron would have known (if that) was that they survived Moria (with G's help); were in in the company of the Ring (as were several small Hobbits); survived the Hornburg (if he even knew they were there) and survived Pellenor.

Aragorn, on the other hand, was Isuldur's heir, possessed the sword that robbed S of his Ring, and had already wrested control of the Orthanc stone from Sauron in direct, mental confrontation !! And Gandalf had been dogging Sauron's heels for over a thousand years (closer to two thousand years - ever since he began to stir again).

About the only other "NAMES" (ie, people who had made names for themselves which Sauron would know) who were there were Imrahil & Eomer. Eomer "might" be considered simply by virtue of being King of the Mark - and, so, able to command the actions of thousands of warriers who helped defeat him on the Pellenor. Imrahil "might" be considered by virtue of being a chief prince and knight of Gondor.

Otherwise, I agree that the Dunedain (as a group) were not a "Name" (ie, a single person to be feared) any more than the armies of Gondor or the Mark. They were important as a group, but none of them were even given names in the story (Halbarad had already died) so it seems unlikely Sauron would or could have looked and said "Oh no! That's Elminar! We need to watch him!!!"

So, I think Belegorn has the right of it - with the possible consideration of Eomer & Imrahil being included (in Sauron's reckoning) by virtue of their ranks and offices.

[Mumriken]

I find it kinda silly how Sauron is looked up at to the extent that he is by so many. While he is a great enemy he is not as powerful as some think. There are many creatures in middle earth more dangerous and more powerful than him. Even many of the good guys could defeat him in the condition he is at the end of the third age. Remember we aren't talking about Sauron in the old days under morgoth or when he had his ring.

At the end of the third age he was a weakling, fled Dol Guldur when the white council approached him. It's true that unlike the istaris he could use his power fully. But most of that power he poured into his ring. So without his ring I wouldn't think he is much stronger than Radagast maybe even weaker. His strength lies in his armies and ability to control people with fear. He feared many:

Gandalf
Aragorn
Elrond
Galadriel
Glorfindel
Radagast
Eagles of manwe

And there are even more people he would fear if he knew they existed:

Ents
Army of the dead
Tom Bombadil
Goldberry
Old Man willow (A very strange powerful tree that)
The blue wizards

Many would easily in a contest of power beat Sauron to the ground. As for what people he feared could actually win over his army. I think he was sure of winning, at that last battle at the black gate he feared nothing.

[Belegorn]

Mumriken I have to disagree with your assertion that Sauron, "is not as powerful as some think" because, "without his ring I wouldn't think he is much stronger than Radagast maybe even weaker". This is false as far as I am aware. While Sauron donned the Ring his power was increased in ME but he still had his power even if he did not wear it. Tolkien wrote in one of his letters, "While he wore it his power on earth was actually enhanced, But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place." Besides we even have Gandalf admitting when he returned as Gandalf the White, "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still." [TT, p. 123]

[Mumriken]

Only mightier because he is using his full "power". If Gandalf, Radagast or anyone else would be allowed to use all their power they could overthrow him. Sauron is not the greatest of the maias. I don't really like that everyone is worshipping him as if he was some uber god. One would think listening to you that you're talking about Morgoth. Remember when Sauron served under Morgoth and was pretty much at the peak of his power. Luthien I think it was actually challenged him in some spell battle. I can't remember the details but she was an elf and actually challenged and deflected his spells. Or hid herself from him.

At the third age half of his power was in the ring, and btw I think you shouldn't take what gandalf says too seriously. Even if he could challenge Sauron he wouldn't. He is there too guide, so why would he say he could challenge the dark lord when he won't? Isildur defeated Sauron and he was human. Sauron isn't Morgoth, I think in this thread you make it sound as if he is. He would fear most if it wouldn't be for his orc army.

EDIT: Yeah and then how come he was defeated when he was parted from the riing at the last alliance battle? So you're saying he is still as powerful without the ring and that the ring just enhances his power? I don't think that makes much sense, then why did he hid himself in Dol Guldur for x years if he was a fully fleshed maia spirit at the peak of his power? Clearly being parted from the ring he was weak...

[Belegorn]

If Gandalf, Radagast or anyone else would be allowed to use all their power they could overthrow him

How do you know this?

One would think listening to you that you're talking about Morgoth

Really? Okay. I'm not sure what I said for you to make such a claim.

Luthien I think it was actually challenged him in some spell battle

He was challenged many times.

she was an elf and actually challenged and deflected his spells

You're probably talking about her kinsmen Finrod who Sauron defeated and imprisoned with Beren in his dungeons. Luthien he tried to attack but the hound of Valinor, Huan, defeated Sauron. Btw, she along with Beren went before Melkor's throne and took a Silmaril from his crown. So don't try to claim that because Sauron could be bested he was somehow not a force in ME.

At the third age half of his power was in the ring

The Ring was created in the 2nd Age. His power was in it before the 3rd Age.

I think you shouldn't take what gandalf says too seriously

And here we are... I think we should not take what you say too seriously, haha.

Even if he could challenge Sauron he wouldn't

He feared Sauron. Even as Olorin. In Valinor we are told, "that he feared Sauron" [Unfinished Tales, p. 410] when he was summoned by Manwe to be a messenger to ME. In ME he tells us, "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still." [TT, p. 123]

Sauron isn't Morgoth

Nobody is. He was the most powerful being in Arda.

I think in this thread you make it sound as if he is

Certainly not I. You're the one who is making false claims here. First that Sauron is weak without his Ring and that people are saying he's stronger than Melkor. Now there is a thread with that question but this is not that thread.

Isildur defeated Sauron and he was human

Isildur and the Dunedain of the 2nd Age were like the Eldar in that period. They were very powerful. None of Sauron's servants could stand up to them. This is why he went off to Numenor to destroy them from within. Sauron, "could not trust even the greatest of his servants to withstand them." [Sil. p. 334] And for all his [Sauron] power "Ar-Pharazon... grew to the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth." [Sil, p. 339] So like I said, when you reference the Dunedain like Isildur and Elendil keep in mind they were more like to the Eldar than to Men. Also Sauron's body was destroyed by Elendil AND Gil-galad, the King of the Elves. Also even though he was beat, he did kill his two foes as well.

how come he was defeated when he was parted from the riing at the last alliance battle

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. You have been saying that without his Ring Sauron is weak. When the Last Alliance beat him Sauron had his Ring. It was cut from his finger by Isildur after Sauron's body was destroyed.

you're saying he is still as powerful without the ring and that the ring just enhances his power

Yes. He is still in rapport with the Ring, unless another like Gandalf or Galadriel had taken it and wielded it. Again, maybe you think like Gandalf we should not trust to Tolkien's words. Tolkien said, "While he wore it his power on earth was actually enhanced, But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place."

why did he hid himself in Dol Guldur for x years if he was a fully fleshed maia spirit at the peak of his power

"For coming out of the wastes of the East he took up his abode in the south of the forest, and slowly he grew and took shape there again; in a dark hill he made his dwelling and wrought there his sorcery, and all folk feared the Sorcerer of Dol Guldur," [Sil, pp. 371-72] This is not new. Apparently when the body is destroyed it takes time and patience for it to be rebuilt and to grow. In the 2nd Age when he was caught in the downfall of Numenor we are told, "his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hate made visible;" [Sil, p. 347]

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

I find it kinda silly how Sauron is looked up at to the extent that he is by so many. While he is a great enemy he is not as powerful as some think. There are many creatures in middle earth more dangerous and more powerful than him. Even many of the good guys could defeat him in the condition he is at the end of the third age. Remember we aren't talking about Sauron in the old days under morgoth or when he had his ring.

Don't blame us, blame Mr. Tolkien:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.~Letter 246

In the 3rd Age, it can be argued Gandalf may have been able to overthrow Sauron (only if Gandalf attempted to master the Ring), but as is clear, it is only Gandalf who "might be expected to master him." Your list of others is a ton and ton of speculation.

Power and peril is a vague and general term in LOTR. It doesn't have clearly defined boundaries and meaning "since Gandalf is more powerful than Aragorn, Gandalf would beat Aragorn in a fight." Many times there are certain circumstances and situations which require specific "powers" (or magic, you might say) which allow for events to play out the way they do. For example, The Witch-King was a far more powerful and dangerous foe then Eowyn and Merry. But Merry carried an enchanted blade, wound with spells specifically designed to be the bane of the Witch-King, and when Merry snuck in a wound with the blade, this broke the Witch-King's power, allowing Eowyn to defeat him.

Or we see Gandalf struggling with opening the door in Moria. He tries every opening spell he knows...and he knows a ton of spells. Yet, as powerful as the spells might be, the door wouldn't open. All Gandalf had to do was follow the directions haha..."speak friend and enter." Anyway, Moria's door could not be opened by sheer power or Gandalf's knowledge of spells, but simply by knowing the answer to a riddle. Sauron rightfully feared Aragorn, a descendant of his most hated enemy, if Aragorn had the Ring. This however does not equate to Aragorn having a greater innate power to Sauron.

As far as Sauron's battle in the Last Alliance and defeat there...it's actually not Isildur who overthrows Sauron. The Eldar and Edain had been laying siege to Barad-dur for 7 years and Barad-dur was not going to be conquered until the Ring was destroyed. Sauron decides to come out and challenge both Elendil and Gil-galad in combat. And it is Elendil and Gil-Galad (together) who overthrow Sauron. Elendil and Gil-galad also die in this battle, and while Sauron is laying beaten on the ground, Isildur cuts the Ring off to claim as weregild for the death of his father and brother.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

He feared many:

Gandalf
Aragorn
Elrond
Galadriel
Glorfindel
Radagast
Eagles of manwe

And there are even more people he would fear if he knew they existed:

Ents
Army of the dead
Tom Bombadil
Goldberry
Old Man willow (A very strange powerful tree that)
The blue wizards

But isn't the point of this thread about Gandalf's statement that "There are names **HERE** which are worth..." and discussing which names he might have been thinking of? He didn't say "there are names in middle earth", but "names HERE".

Then the only names he could consider would be of those who were actually **HERE** (ie, with him at the last debate or, perhaps, in the vicinity of Minas Tirith and available to march with the host to the Black Gate.

Of the names you listed, only Gandalf and Aragorn were there and available - and I think we all agree those two names would be included.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"Glorfindel is one I am not sure about in this respect. I am sure that if Sauron knew about them, he would be freaked out maybe even more than about many of the others."

The Witch-king certainly remembers him, having fled from Glorfindel in terror at the Battle of Fornost. Great sorcerer and wraith though he was, he knew a Valinorean Elf-Lord was more than he could withstand.