Native Language is not the same as Cradle Language - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Inziladun · 06-24-2012, 05:34 PM

Personally I've long had an affinity for the German language. I like the syntax, and the way it sounds when spoken. So much so that I chose to study it for a couple of years in school.
I've never been to Germany, nor do I have any living relations who are native to the land, so I was never able to really explain it. I found out in the past few years that I do have ancestors about four generations ago who were born in Switzerland and Germany, so maybe there's something to what lmp is saying.

Along the lines of Nog's thoughts, I have noticed that myself. Over the years I've been told that I've (unconsciously) developed a "generic" American accent out of character for the region of my birth. In moments of high emotion though, I do hear the original accent re-emerge at times (again unconsciously).

Galadriel55 · 06-24-2012, 06:35 PM

That's a very interesting situation, Inzil. Really cool.

I noticed that, although I speak English fluently - even better than my native/cradle language (Russian) - I just can't speak it when I talk to Russian-speaking people. If I know someone speaks Russian, I just cannot speak English with them. And if by some circumstance I have to speak English to my family (for example, if we have non-Russian speaking guests), I speak with a horrible Russian accent - even though I don't have one when I talk to people at school.

MCRmyGirl4eva · 06-24-2012, 07:18 PM

Galadriel 55, I know what you're talking about. I have a friend at school who immigrated from Russia, and though she is perfectly fluent in English, (her parents don't speak a word of it, though) when she gets mad, it becomes hard to understand her accent.

Galadriel55 · 06-24-2012, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCRmyGirl4eva

Galadriel 55, I know what you're talking about. I have a friend at school who immigrated from Russia, and though she is perfectly fluent in English, (her parents don't speak a word of it, though) when she gets mad, it becomes hard to understand her accent.

Hmm... When I get mad I can yell in any language, without accents. It's just when I speak to a Russian-speaking person that I can't utter a word in English without that accent creeping in, regardless of the conversation or emotions.

This doesn't really prove anything about native vs cradle languages, though.

Lalwendë · 06-25-2012, 01:50 PM

There's two interpretations as I see it, both picked up on here: that he is referring to languages you don't necessarily 'know'; and that he is also referring to how an individual may speak a language with a very particular dialect.

In my own experience, I fell down with French, the verbs are utterly alien and I'm unable to pronounce it without feeling like a prize prat, but I can muddle on with German quite happily, it's almost instinctive (though probably grammatically incorrect). I have put that down to it being much closer to English, and also easier for someone with a northern tongue to speak. Northerners speak with an open mouth and get their tongue around words (as though munching a meat & tater pie

), much as you do with German, whereas a lot of southerners talk 'far back' and swallow half the letters rather than speak them - this is more suited to pronouncing the Romance/Latin languages.

As for dialects and accents, I use both. I find I try to speak more clearly when dealing with people who speak RP, unless they annoy me, in which case my obstinate genes kick in and I slip back into broad Lancastrian

I have perfect understanding of some of the most difficult British accents but struggle with anyone who talks far back. English has hundreds of varieties, even within England. If this is what Tolkien means, i.e. the difference between standard English and regional English, then I know exactly what he means.

06-24-2012, 05:34 PM	#1
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,039	Personally I've long had an affinity for the German language. I like the syntax, and the way it sounds when spoken. So much so that I chose to study it for a couple of years in school. I've never been to Germany, nor do I have any living relations who are native to the land, so I was never able to really explain it. I found out in the past few years that I do have ancestors about four generations ago who were born in Switzerland and Germany, so maybe there's something to what lmp is saying. Along the lines of Nog's thoughts, I have noticed that myself. Over the years I've been told that I've (unconsciously) developed a "generic" American accent out of character for the region of my birth. In moments of high emotion though, I do hear the original accent re-emerge at times (again unconsciously). __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

06-24-2012, 06:35 PM	#2
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,521	That's a very interesting situation, Inzil. Really cool. I noticed that, although I speak English fluently - even better than my native/cradle language (Russian) - I just can't speak it when I talk to Russian-speaking people. If I know someone speaks Russian, I just cannot speak English with them. And if by some circumstance I have to speak English to my family (for example, if we have non-Russian speaking guests), I speak with a horrible Russian accent - even though I don't have one when I talk to people at school. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

06-24-2012, 07:18 PM	#3
MCRmyGirl4eva Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: The Elvenking's Halls Posts: 425	Galadriel 55, I know what you're talking about. I have a friend at school who immigrated from Russia, and though she is perfectly fluent in English, (her parents don't speak a word of it, though) when she gets mad, it becomes hard to understand her accent. __________________ "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit..." "'Well, I'm back.' said Sam."

06-25-2012, 01:50 PM	#5
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	There's two interpretations as I see it, both picked up on here: that he is referring to languages you don't necessarily 'know'; and that he is also referring to how an individual may speak a language with a very particular dialect. In my own experience, I fell down with French, the verbs are utterly alien and I'm unable to pronounce it without feeling like a prize prat, but I can muddle on with German quite happily, it's almost instinctive (though probably grammatically incorrect). I have put that down to it being much closer to English, and also easier for someone with a northern tongue to speak. Northerners speak with an open mouth and get their tongue around words (as though munching a meat & tater pie ), much as you do with German, whereas a lot of southerners talk 'far back' and swallow half the letters rather than speak them - this is more suited to pronouncing the Romance/Latin languages. As for dialects and accents, I use both. I find I try to speak more clearly when dealing with people who speak RP, unless they annoy me, in which case my obstinate genes kick in and I slip back into broad Lancastrian I have perfect understanding of some of the most difficult British accents but struggle with anyone who talks far back. English has hundreds of varieties, even within England. If this is what Tolkien means, i.e. the difference between standard English and regional English, then I know exactly what he means. __________________ Gordon's alive!