The Lesser Rings

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

This is, I would say, Gandalf's normal approach, and it makes him quite different from Saruman. Whereas Gandalf approaches such things with as little pride as possible, Saruman basically says "oooh, something I can use--let me test it to the fullness of its abilities, without regard for the possible consequences."

All of which is to say: I agree with lalwendë that a caution from Gandalf about the dangers of a "trifle" suggest that something like the Lesser Rings weren't so much evil as potentially dangerous--like, for example, a teenager with a motorcycle.

Originally Posted by radagastly

It's possible his own ring gave him some extra insight on the matter, I suppose. We never hear Elrond's or Galadriel's opinions to compare it to, but I suspect you're right. Gandalf seems to do an awful lot of fretting. Maybe that's how he was able to stay true to his mission.

And to be fair on Saruman, he is one of Aule's people, so I'd expect him to find objects and fiddle with them to see what they can do. Maybe if he had not used the Palantir quite so much, he would have come up with some interesting solutions to the problems of Middle-earth. Gandalf is quite the opposite - and much of the story of Lord of the Rings comprises of people doing things that Gandalf would rather they didn't do.

Originally Posted by radagastly

Somewhere later (I'm sorry, I forget where, and I can't seem to find it.) Frodo is told that this shining figure was Glorfindel as he appears on the other side because he came from over the sea, and was filled with the memory of the Undying Lands and I think that this memory never faded from those who ever once beheld it. I wonder if this is why Sauron was said the fear Galadriel. She was the only Elf left of any import to Sauron who had come from across the sea. Just a side-note I guess, perhaps a question for another thread, though it does fit in with your assessment of how the Great Rings worked. Perhaps the lesser rings provided a similar, though more limited, insight.

Good find!

Frodo can see the Riders, obviously, and Glorfindel - who possesses something extra in his 'fea' because he has been across the Sea. What are the 'small shadowy forms waving flames'?

Perhaps this is why Galadriel would be such an incredibly powerful leader if she had taken the One ring - if she also possesses the same intensity of Light that Glorfindel does, then if she was in control of Sauron's ring then she would be truly terrifying. This also brings me back to the discussion about 'proper' stones in the Elven rings as Nenya has the 'white' stone. It seems to possess qualities not just of water but also of Light. So it was not just the 'proper' stone for the ring, but also the correct/proper stone for Galadriel.

[radagastly]

What are the 'small shadowy forms waving flames'?

I believe the text (which I still can't find) explains them to be Aragorn and the Hobbits, following Glorfindel's lead to drive the Nazgul into the flood.

Perhaps this is why Galadriel would be such an incredibly powerful leader if she had taken the One ring - if she also possesses the same intensity of Light that Glorfindel does, then if she was in control of Sauron's ring then she would be truly terrifying. This also brings me back to the discussion about 'proper' stones in the Elven rings as Nenya has the 'white' stone. It seems to possess qualities not just of water but also of Light. So it was not just the 'proper' stone for the ring, but also the correct/proper stone for Galadriel.

Good point. Even for the members of the Fellowship that didn't have a ring, Galadriel seemed to exude a special "charisma" that is similar to Glorfindel, but lacking even in Elrond.

[mark12_30]

I believe Gandalf fills in Frodo's gaps in memory from Frodo's bedside just after he wakes up.

[Lalwendë]

Thanks for that! Located it and have copied it here:

'When the Ringwraiths swept by, your friends ran up behind. Close to the Ford there is a small hollow beside the road masked by a few stunted trees. There they hastily kindled fire; for Glorfindel knew that a flood would come down, if the Riders tried to cross, and then he would have to deal with any that were left on his side of the river. The moment the flood appeared, he rushed out, followed by Aragorn and the others with flaming brands. Caught between fire and water, and seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath, they were dismayed, and their horses were stricken with madness.

This is also relevant:

You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in
the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you.'
'I know,' said Frodo. 'They were terrible to behold! But why could we all see their horses?'
'Because they are real horses; just as the black robes are robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.'

Yet it was the 'Morgul-blade' that was almost the cause of Frodo becoming a wraith, not the Ring, though that helped the Ringwraiths to hurt him. Again, an artefact with magic of some kind wrought into it? Or just a blade which inflicted a terrible injury, but with the consequence that as a Ringbearer he would become a wraith rather than die?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Yet it was the 'Morgul-blade' that was almost the cause of Frodo becoming a wraith, not the Ring, though that helped the Ringwraiths to hurt him. Again, an artefact with magic of some kind wrought into it? Or just a blade which inflicted a terrible injury, but with the consequence that as a Ringbearer he would become a wraith rather than die?

There is no indication that a wound from a ‘Morgul-knife’ with pieces of the blade within would have gradually changed only a Ring bearer into a wraith. It seems to me likely enough that if the leader of the Ringwraiths had stabbed Sam, or Merry, or Pippin, or Aragorn, the same thing would have happened to that person.

The part word morgul- means ‘black magic’ (mor ‘black’ + gûl ‘evil sorcery’).

Possibly because Frodo was a Ring-bearer he had increased susceptibility to a morgûl wound. Or possibly the Ring actually helped Frodo to resist the enchantment. We are not told either way. Aragorn’s athelas helped, but some fragments of the blade had gotten in too deep for Aragorn to find them.

But a knife that was otherwise normal but inflicted a horrible wound would probably not be called ‘Morgul-’ by Gandalf, its blade would not have vanished away in the light, and Aragorn and Glorfindel both would not have been so concerned. Glorfrindel in particular refers to signs written on the surviving hilt which he doubts the others can see but which are evil.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Yet it was the 'Morgul-blade' that was almost the cause of Frodo becoming a wraith, not the Ring, though that helped the Ringwraiths to hurt him. Again, an artefact with magic of some kind wrought into it? Or just a blade which inflicted a terrible injury, but with the consequence that as a Ringbearer he would become a wraith rather than die?

Originally Posted by jallanite

There is no indication that a wound from a ‘Morgul-knife’ with pieces of the blade within would have gradually changed only a Ring bearer into a wraith. It seems to me likely enough that if the leader of the Ringwraiths had stabbed Sam, or Merry, or Pippin, or Aragorn, the same thing would have happened to that person.

The part word morgul- means ‘black magic’ (mor ‘black’ + gûl ‘evil sorcery’).

Possibly because Frodo was a Ring-bearer he had increased susceptibility to a morgûl wound. Or possibly the Ring actually helped Frodo to resist the enchantment. We are not told either way. Aragorn’s athelas helped, but some fragments of the blade had gotten in too deep for Aragorn to find them.

But a knife that was otherwise normal but inflicted a horrible wound would probably not be called ‘Morgul-’ by Gandalf, its blade would not have vanished away in the light, and Aragorn and Glorfindel both would not have been so concerned. Glorfrindel in particular refers to signs written on the surviving hilt which he doubts the others can see but which are evil.

The "Morgul-blade", I have always believed is simply called after Minas Morgul, the "capital city of the Ringwraith", so it would be the place of its making (or the place where it "comes from" in the eyes of the outside world). But of course that does not dismiss the fact that Morgul does mean "black sorcery", and of course that is where the name of Minas Morgul (or Imlad Morgul) comes from.

But yes, the essential part is correct: the blade would have made anyone a Wraith in time. We are told about the shard that remained inside Frodo for a long time, and was traveling towards his heart. But I think the Ring sped up the process. Simply put: if somebody keeps wearing the Ring for long, he starts fading. If someone is stabbed by a Morgul-Blade, he starts fading. This is just adding the two of them together.

For reference, emphasis mine:

Originally Posted by LotR, Book II, Chapter I: Many Meetings

"Elrond is a master of healing, but the weapons of our Enemy are deadly. To tell you the truth, I had very little hope; for I suspected that there was some fragment of the blade still in the closed wound. But it could not be found until last night. Then Elrond removed a splinter. It was deeply buried, and it was working inwards."
Frodo shuddered, remembering the cruel knife with notched blade that had vanished in Strider's hands. "Don't be alarmed!" said Gandalf. "It is gone now. It has been melted. And it seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days."
"What would they have done to me?" asked Frodo. "What were the Riders trying to do?"
"They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command."

[littlemanpoet]

Makes one wonder how many weak wraiths were skulking around Mordor or elsewhere.