How would one acquire an orc army?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The size of Isengard's army and how it was acquired in relatively quick manner is probably the most interesting thing, but then, Saruman probably really took the "good old breeding program guidelines" from Morgoth or whatever, after all, he had the deep knowledge of the "arts of the Enemy". When you read about his machines etc., he is described as being very efficient in making things very efficient, so I have no doubt he was able to breed a lot of Orcs over a couple of decades (unlike the couple of months like the movies would have us believe).

The breeding question is one thing, but I would also wonder how those masses of Saruman's orcs were trained.

Saruman doesn't seem like a close-combat tactics sort of fellow. Did he use one or more of the "originals" he'd used to start breeding as trainers for the rest? Possibly, but then one would think the Uruk-hai, being notably larger than the Misty Mountains orcs, would have a different style of fighting. Maybe local Dunlendings helped out there. How long would it have taken to train thousands of troops in warfare, especially when you're having to do it secretly?

[Galadriel55]

It would not have been difficult for Saruman to "acquire" his orcs. Firstly, since Isengard is in close proximity to the Misty Mountains, and we hear from Celeborn, I believe, that orcs have been flocking there again.

Secondly, because of his power over minds. If he could manipulate good and wise people with his voice, arguments, reputation, power, threats, etc, he could certainly turn a rabble or orcs into his servants - even somewhat loyal ones, as much as orcs and loyal go together.

Most importantly, though, I think that this is a clear example of how evil draws evil. Lesser evil, or those with lesser power, flock to the greater. This is partially why Sauron was so successful in winning the East and South to his side. Same goes to Saruman and his orcs. They do evil, he is powerful evil, they follow him.


As for the Uruk-hai, the half-men-half-orcs, we are lead to assume that they were produced through "mixed marriages" between men and orcs, but then there's no proof of this or otherwise. Maybe Saruman just figured out a way to increase orc size and reduce the fear of the sun. Maybe they were genetically modified orcs, or they were on preformance-enhancing drugs, or whatever you want. He invented ME dynamite - why not oversized orcs?

I think that the Prof never considered how the orcs are trained. It seems that they are just "born with a sword in hand", so to speak. Unless they are "made with a sword in hand". But whatever their origin, fighting and other gruesomness seems to be as innate to them as various arts are for Elves. When they are on their own, the reason for being so unorgainsed is because they don't have a leader who is significantly stronger and more powerful than they are to make they obey. Without a dictator they have complete anarchy. When they have someone to put them in line, they can march in that line.

Yet, contrary to my previous point, it was always the men - Dunlendings, Haradrin, Easterlings, etc - that made up the more organised part of Sauron's and Saruman's armies. The orcs' main purpose was not brains, skill, or tactics, but numbers.

[Morthoron]

Simple. One merely needs a Platinum Uruk Business Visa card. Don't leave Orthanc without it...

Spawning pits: $5172.63
Human flesh: $6.95 per pound
Voice lessons: $15.00 per hour

An army of 10,000 Orcs? Priceless!

[Alfirin]

I think Saruman mat have offered the Orcs something they valued far more that precios metals.......food. Remember the Uruk-hai's battle cry that mentions that the White hand "gives us man's flesh to eat". This is regarded as a postive by the orcs. It is quite possible that Orcs love the taste of human flesh, prizing it above all other foods. If they do it is likey all Saruman would have to promise them was that if they served him, he would give them weaponry that would allow them to kill many men, and give them ample opportunity to feast, not just on men but, as the force trampled through Rohan proper and began to assault towns possibly on women and "tender young children". And that this could keep going almost indefinitely, a long pork feast that would never have to end. With further gourmet delights down the road (I'm sure that, if Orcs eat people, some of the Uruk-Hai (I single them out because they are impled as being not merely bigger than the common orcs but more intellegent) might be curious if elf and dwarf are tasty as well, and want to find out.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The breeding question is one thing, but I would also wonder how those masses of Saruman's orcs were trained.

Saruman doesn't seem like a close-combat tactics sort of fellow. Did he use one or more of the "originals" he'd used to start breeding as trainers for the rest? Possibly, but then one would think the Uruk-hai, being notably larger than the Misty Mountains orcs, would have a different style of fighting. Maybe local Dunlendings helped out there.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that the Prof never considered how the orcs are trained. It seems that they are just "born with a sword in hand", so to speak.

Good point, this. But as to what Inzil said, I would add: why not "close-combat tactics sort of fellow"? Sure, Saruman would not be the one to stand in front of the Uruk armies and show them how to swing a sword, he probably won't be the one to study ancient manuals on sword-fighting in the era of Númenor or whatnot, in that I agree. But still, I can imagine Saruman digging up some treatises like "Analysis of the Basic Tactics of the Third Angband Regiment - A Comprehensive Handbook" and making one of his more intelligent (human?) leaders drill the Orcs according to them. It is only a theory, though, and there surely could be many objections raised, but I'd say it's a possibility.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I would add: why not "close-combat tactics sort of fellow"? Sure, Saruman would not be the one to stand in front of the Uruk armies and show them how to swing a sword, he probably won't be the one to study ancient manuals on sword-fighting in the era of Númenor or whatnot, in that I agree. But still, I can imagine Saruman digging up some treatises like "Analysis of the Basic Tactics of the Third Angband Regiment - A Comprehensive Handbook" and making one of his more intelligent (human?) leaders drill the Orcs according to them. It is only a theory, though, and there surely could be many objections raised, but I'd say it's a possibility.

Something like this?

I suppose Saruman might also have had occasion to watch both the men of Minas Tirith and the Rohirrim at training, so maybe that gave him some ideas as well.