Unfinished Tales - Part Four - III - The Palantíri

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The first sentence in this, the final chapter of the UT, is very important:

The palantíri were no doubt never matters of common use or common knowledge, even in Númenor.

We tend to think that because we read about them in the LotR, the residents of Middle-earth knew of them as well. Was there reason to keep them, though not secret, but relatively little-known? Would there have been some kind of fight or rivalry to get them if more people had known?

At any rate, this chapter is a treasure-trove of information about the stones and their history! It also sheds light on the persons who used them, especially Saruman and Denethor. Finally it explains why they could not be used lightly or easily, and the limitations of what they could reveal.

Are you interested in the palantíri? What aspects of this chapter do you find most helpful and informative? Is there something you'd like to have read that is missing?


This closes our discussion of the Unfinished Tales. The index is helpful as a reference, but not cohesive enough to warrant additional posts.

Thanks to all of you who've read and posted on these threads! They remain open so latecomers can add their thoughts at any time.

[jallanite]

It is interesting to see Tolkien’s thought proceed, partly by deducing the hstory of the palantíri from examining what he had previously written as though this were from genuine, independent sources and partly by new inventions.

Or are these new inventions? Some of Tolkien’s writing may have been destroyed or lost and some of Tolkien’s thoughts on details of his legendarium may have been quite clear in his mind but never written down previously.

Tolkien goes into great detail in this essay on the matter of the palantíri needing to be oriented and into great detail on their polarization. But then in note 17 Christopher Tolkien remarks:

A later, detached note denies that the palantíri were polarized or oriented, but gives to further detail.

Possibly this change in Tolkien’s thought came about when Tolkien considered the unlikeliness of:

So it was ‘by chance’ as Men call it (as Gandalf would have said) that Peregrin, fumbling with the Stone, must have set it on the ground more or less ‘upright’, and sitting westward of it have had the fixed east-looking face in the proper position.

Removing the features of polarity and orientation avoids the element of chance.

Tolkien did however maintain, so far as is recorded, his belief that Gandalf was wrong, as originally pictured, in saying that Denethor did not presume to use the Stone until recently.

Tolkien indicates in this essay that Gandalf should be shown in the book to not say, “Denethor did not presume to use it” but rather “Denethor would not presume to use it”, making it clear that this is a surmise by Gandalf rather than a statement of fact, although not making clear that Tolkien thinks it an incorrect surmise. Christoper Tolkien indicates that “(apparently by mere oversight)” this change was not made with other changes introduced in the text of 1967. Only in the edition of 1994 was this change finally made.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

The first sentence in this, the final chapter of the UT, is very important: We tend to think that because we read about them in the LotR, the residents of Middle-earth knew of them as well. Was there reason to keep them, though not secret, but relatively little-known? Would there have been some kind of fight or rivalry to get them if more people had known?

On one hand I can see people pestering a Stone's Warden (or the King or Steward) to use it in observing whatever was close to their heart, be it far-off family, or whatever. So there was sense in secrecy.
On the other, we are told in the chapter that before their decline, the Kings would not have been hesitant to reveal the source of any information they had obtained from using a palantír.

Perhaps the secrecy aspect was more for the commoners, not for those close to the King, or his council.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Are you interested in the palantíri? What aspects of this chapter do you find most helpful and informative? Is there something you'd like to have read that is missing?

I find the chapter as a whole fascinating. It clarifies the Saruman / Denethor/ Sauron connection through the respective Stones to which each had access, and why they had the Stones to begin with.

I like also that we are told that the Stones were most open to "legitimate" users; Heirs of Elendil or those with lawful authority in the North and South Kingdoms. That explains partly why Sauron was able dominate Saruman, but not Denethor or Aragorn.

I always wanted to hear more of the Stone at Emyn Beraid. It looked only to the West, and was a possible means for mortals in Middle-earth to view Eressëa.
It puts me in mind of this from FOTR, when Frodo sleeps in the house at Crickhollow:

Eventually he fell into a vague dream....Suddenly he found he was out in the open...There was a strange salt smell in the air. Looking up he saw before him a tall white tower, standing alone on a high ridge. A great desire came over him to climb the tower and see the Sea.

I like to think that palantír on the Tower Hills called to Frodo somehow, or at least his dream had something to do with it. There's no textual basis, of course, but I still think it's neat.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

This closes our discussion of the Unfinished Tales. The index is helpful as a reference, but not cohesive enough to warrant additional posts.

Thanks to all of you who've read and posted on these threads! They remain open so latecomers can add their thoughts at any time.

Thank you for opening all these, Esty. I simply haven't had time to go into any great detail with most of what I've said, and some chapters I haven't got into at all, but it's been interesting and fun.

[Formendacil]

The interesting thing about this chapter, as complete a history as it is, is that it prompts more questions for me. Were there more palantíri than the seven belonging to Elendil? One of the footnotes here reminds of of the Master-Stone of Tol Eressëa, but only to point out that this text says nothing of it. Was Elendil the only one in Númenor with such Stones, a gift from the Elves to the Lord of the Faithful or had they belonged a long time to his family--before Amandil, perhaps, to the ancestors they shared with Inzilabêth mother of Tar-Palantír?

The general trend of Middle-earth history makes it hard to imagine the Realms in Exile possessing technology that Númenor never had... but even though that seems to be the case, the fact that the Noldor (and Fëanor singled out among them) are said to have forged them, one wonders why there were not palantíri in the halls of Nargothrond, Himling, and Hithlum for the communication of kings? Or perhaps there were, and we are simply never told...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Was Elendil the only one in Númenor with such Stones, a gift from the Elves to the Lord of the Faithful or had they belonged a long time to his family--before Amandil, perhaps, to the ancestors they shared with Inzilabêth mother of Tar-Palantír?

I would think the Stones had belonged to the Lords of Andúnië for many years before Elendil's time, if only because it would have been very difficult for ships from Eressëa to land in Númenor by then. Perhaps they were a means of the Faithful for evading the machinations of the King's Men.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

The general trend of Middle-earth history makes it hard to imagine the Realms in Exile possessing technology that Númenor never had... but even though that seems to be the case, the fact that the Noldor (and Fëanor singled out among them) are said to have forged them, one wonders why there were not palantíri in the halls of Nargothrond, Himling, and Hithlum for the communication of kings? Or perhaps there were, and we are simply never told...

I think it's likely the Noldor in Beleriand possessed and used them. It would explain how the realms were able to coordinate battle plans in the wars against Morgoth. Conventional travel would have been impractical due to distance.