A Hobbit of Oats - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morthoron · 03-08-2012, 08:22 PM

So a "hobbit" refers to weights and measures, eh? Maybe that's why a group of Hobbits is called a "gross".

Inziladun · 03-08-2012, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

So a "hobbit" refers to weights and measures, eh? Maybe that's why a group of Hobbits is called a "gross".

That's only when referring to Hobbits at a free-food banquet.

That is indeed an interesting find. Certainly not something I've ever heard before.

You'd think T. would have said so though, if that origin had been a factor.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 03-09-2012, 01:37 AM

Brilliant, I say!

But I think Inzil has a good point here - would Tolkien not mention the origin of the word somewhere if it had been the case? Then again, it sounds veery unlikely that it would be completely unrelated (especially given his knowledge). Unconscious influence would therefore seem the most logical (like that he had heard the word somewhere, forgot about it and later simply used it, thinking it was "his") - unless the Prof wanted this to be his own private secret, hidden from his readers and others?

For that matter, this all makes the sentence "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit" much more dadaistic by origin than it would seem

Bêthberry · 03-09-2012, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

So a "hobbit" refers to weights and measures, eh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by some hobbitish lads

Boy, you're gonna carry that weight
Carry that weight a long time
Boy, you're gonna carry that weight
Carry that weight a long time

Lalwendë · 03-09-2012, 06:40 AM

Tolkien did of course try to explain the etymology of the word hobbit within the Middle-earth context as being hol-bytla or 'hole builder'. But there's always been something of the real world about the word.

The use of the word hobbit or anything similar prior to Tolkien was scanty. And I'd not heard this new use before at all! There's the more well known possibility of it being linked to folklore terms such as hobgoblin/hobby oss/hobbledyhoy. And the word hobbit does occur in the Denham Tracts, which is a mid Victorian (and mad and rambling) collection of folklore, stories, lists, proverbs, etc. Again this is in connection with a British creature of folklore.

It's likely that Tolkien did somehow read the word used in both ways and store it in the back of his mind to be brought out again subsconsciously on the day he was bored while marking exam papers and wrote that first line of The Hobbit down. He was later to be credited with creating the word - did he do that or just give it a new meaning?

I find it satisfying that a hobbit is also a big measure of oats or barley

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-09-2012, 07:17 AM

I heard Shippey lecture on the origin of "hobbit" and other names as they originated in folklore - Lal is on the same track in her above post. However, the weight/measure source idea is fascinating! And who's to say it wasn't part of the "leafmould" of Tolkien's imagination...

Formendacil · 03-09-2012, 07:53 AM

So barley isn't only available in pints, but in hobbits too?

Legate of Amon Lanc · 03-09-2012, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

So barley isn't only available in pints, but in hobbits too?

Also, I predict that henceforth, all the (especially English-speaking) Downers are going to come to shops and ask for everything measured in weight/volume in hobbits

Lalwendë · 03-09-2012, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Also, I predict that henceforth, all the (especially English-speaking) Downers are going to come to shops and ask for everything measured in weight/volume in hobbits

You know I will try this. The temptation to order a hobbit of taters is just too much for me to resist.

I'm hoping to get over to Flintshire at some point soon (family history fieldtrip) and I might try it on some Welsh folks and see if they still use it. I might not try up in Cerrig-y-drudion though, they're all Sons of Glyndwr up there.

blantyr · 03-09-2012, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Also, I predict that henceforth, all the (especially English-speaking) Downers are going to come to shops and ask for everything measured in weight/volume in hobbits

MIT has a habit of giving test problems in mixed systems of measurement. The problem might be given in english measures, feet, pounds and whatnot, but the answer would be asked for in metric measure. One time a professor forgot to specify what unit of speed the answer should be given in, and got all sorts of different and creative units of measurement in his responses, including furlongs per fortnight.

The hobbit seems to be just the sort of unit of measurement for such a situation!

03-08-2012, 08:22 PM	#1
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,515	So a "hobbit" refers to weights and measures, eh? Maybe that's why a group of Hobbits is called a "gross". __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

03-09-2012, 01:37 AM	#3
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Brilliant, I say! But I think Inzil has a good point here - would Tolkien not mention the origin of the word somewhere if it had been the case? Then again, it sounds veery unlikely that it would be completely unrelated (especially given his knowledge). Unconscious influence would therefore seem the most logical (like that he had heard the word somewhere, forgot about it and later simply used it, thinking it was "his") - unless the Prof wanted this to be his own private secret, hidden from his readers and others? For that matter, this all makes the sentence "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit" much more dadaistic by origin than it would seem __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

03-09-2012, 06:40 AM	#5
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Tolkien did of course try to explain the etymology of the word hobbit within the Middle-earth context as being hol-bytla or 'hole builder'. But there's always been something of the real world about the word. The use of the word hobbit or anything similar prior to Tolkien was scanty. And I'd not heard this new use before at all! There's the more well known possibility of it being linked to folklore terms such as hobgoblin/hobby oss/hobbledyhoy. And the word hobbit does occur in the Denham Tracts, which is a mid Victorian (and mad and rambling) collection of folklore, stories, lists, proverbs, etc. Again this is in connection with a British creature of folklore. It's likely that Tolkien did somehow read the word used in both ways and store it in the back of his mind to be brought out again subsconsciously on the day he was bored while marking exam papers and wrote that first line of The Hobbit down. He was later to be credited with creating the word - did he do that or just give it a new meaning? I find it satisfying that a hobbit is also a big measure of oats or barley __________________ Gordon's alive!

03-09-2012, 07:17 AM	#6
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	I heard Shippey lecture on the origin of "hobbit" and other names as they originated in folklore - Lal is on the same track in her above post. However, the weight/measure source idea is fascinating! And who's to say it wasn't part of the "leafmould" of Tolkien's imagination... __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-09-2012, 07:53 AM	#7
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,328	So barley isn't only available in pints, but in hobbits too? __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.