Two Questions - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lord of Angmar · 12-30-2003, 02:14 PM

1) The Grey Havens are not part of the Undying Land. They are a coastal land presided over by Cirdan the Shipwright, whose primary concern in the Third Age of the World was to provide safe passage for the Elves to Valinor by allowing them to travel in his ships over the Great Sea to the Undying Land. He left Middle-earth himself in the Fourth Age, along with all other Elves that made their abode in the Grey Havens and in all of Middle-earth.

2) Actually, after the Second Age, Numenor did not exist. It was sunk to oblivion after Ar-Pharazon, persuaded by Sauron, assailed the Valar in the Undying Lands. Everyone in the assault was killed, as well as all of the inhabitants of Numenor except the Elendili, who, led by Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion, fled to Middle-earth and started the Kingdom of Gondor.

But I digress.

Besides Middle-earth, the Undying Lands (which were technically after the downfall of Numenor no longer part of the physical world) and the Walls of the Sun, there were the Hither Lands and the Dark Lands, of which Professor Tolkien did not write much.

12-30-2003, 02:14 PM	#2
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	1) The Grey Havens are not part of the Undying Land. They are a coastal land presided over by Cirdan the Shipwright, whose primary concern in the Third Age of the World was to provide safe passage for the Elves to Valinor by allowing them to travel in his ships over the Great Sea to the Undying Land. He left Middle-earth himself in the Fourth Age, along with all other Elves that made their abode in the Grey Havens and in all of Middle-earth. 2) Actually, after the Second Age, Numenor did not exist. It was sunk to oblivion after Ar-Pharazon, persuaded by Sauron, assailed the Valar in the Undying Lands. Everyone in the assault was killed, as well as all of the inhabitants of Numenor except the Elendili, who, led by Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion, fled to Middle-earth and started the Kingdom of Gondor. But I digress. Besides Middle-earth, the Undying Lands (which were technically after the downfall of Numenor no longer part of the physical world) and the Walls of the Sun, there were the Hither Lands and the Dark Lands, of which Professor Tolkien did not write much. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.