They Shall Not Pass! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Andsigil · 02-22-2012, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I'd never simply assume Tolkien would be afraid of 'reds under the bed', his views and his writing are much more subtle than that.

Well, I never implied he was afraid of the Spanish communists; I said he wouldn't have admired them- especially after they started gleefully shooting priests during the Red Terror.

Humphrey Carpenter's biography of Tolkien gives a rather pertinent description of a man who was both conservative and approving of the gentry.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 03-01-2012, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Well, I never implied he was afraid of the Spanish communists; I said he wouldn't have admired them- especially after they started gleefully shooting priests during the Red Terror.

I never did study the Spanish Civil War, so I don't know how it was viewed by contemporaries.

I believe that you are quite right that Tolkien would have had no sympathy for the red terror, that took place in the wake of the military rising. He probably wasn't too happy about the white terror either, but I wouldn't know.

The interesting question for me is how the conflict was portrait. I know that in socialist and communist circles it was portrait as the forefront in the struggle against fascism, famously motivating many to join the international brigades.

Did contemporaries see the republican cause as being equivalent of the communist/socialist cause?

If for example it was viewed as the struggle of a young democracy vs. a reactionary military, then the battle of Madrid would surely invoke more sympathy and remorse, even among conservatives?

This is all very speculative on my part...but I do find these links interesting and I really wish that it was a conscious choice on Tolkien's part.

Lalwendë · 03-07-2012, 05:02 PM

I did study it and was lucky enough to meet a veteran when I was 18. The feeling in free Europe at the time was that Franco/fascism was wrong. Dictator de Rivera had been brought down in 1930 and they had a nascent democracy, so Franco, backed by the other fascist regimes of Germany and Italy, was seen as a bully boy, potentially a threat. The British establishment did not get involved in the conflict, officially, but allowed people to freely go and serve, allowed weapons to be shipped to the Republicans, and took in large numbers of Spanish children.

Remember who was on the side of Franco and what British people in general, especially WWI veterans, might have thought about that fact. We won't ever know whether Tolkien had the phrase forefront in his mind for Gandalf, but given that he could have chosen from dozens, even hundreds of other phrases (I bet he had a thesaurus

), and chose something that famous...it's not to be dismissed. He'll have known what it meant and he didn't dismiss it. Put it this way, it was as well known as modern catch phrases like "We're All In This Together" or "Yes We Can!" and I'd certainly notice if I slipped one of those into a big moment in a story I was writing (and then go and grab a monster pot of Tippex if it was the former

). I didn't realise how well known it was until recently, which is what prompted me to resurrect Rune's thread.

Out of interest, one of Tolkien's former students, and one who held him in great esteem, joined the International Brigades - WH Auden.

The Elf-warrior · 03-13-2012, 01:15 AM

In one of his letters (#83 from October 6, 1944), Tolkien expresses support for Franco. He describes him and C.S. Lewis's meeting with one Roy Campbell,

Quote:

...who became a Catholic after sheltering the Carmelite fathers in Barcelona - in vain, they were caught and butchered...As you know he then fought through the war on Franco's side...However it is not possible to convey an impression of such a rare character, both a soldier and a poet, and a Christian convert. How unlike the Left - the 'corduroy panzers' who fled to America (Auden among them who with his friends got R.C.'s works 'banned' by the Birmingham T. Council!)...C.S.L.'s reactions were odd. Nothing is a greater tribute to Red propaganda than the fact that he (who knows they are in all other subjects liars and traducers) believes all that is said against Franco, and nothing that is said for him.

Lalwendë · 03-13-2012, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Elf-warrior

In one of his letters (#83 from October 6, 1944), Tolkien expresses support for Franco. He describes him and C.S. Lewis's meeting with one Roy Campbell,

The 'twerp' letter is a long way from 'expressing support' for Franco. I remember some blogger bringing this one up ages ago as evidence Tolkien was a 'nazi' but I'll point out now as I did then, it doesn't express his support for fascism, it's part a rant about his friend (at the time) Lewis and part gushing response to meeting the enigmatic Campbell. It's fairly characteristic of British feeling in 1944 - Franco didn't in the end get too deep with the Axis, and there was a growing fear of what Stalin might bring along with his alliance with those against the Axis.

Campbell is really interesting, and I don't blame Tolkien for being taken aback. He was rather like Marmite in that people at the time either loved him or despised him (from the distance of time, a lot of the accusations of fascism levelled against him were unfair, he was driven by faith and a wee bit bonkers). To a fellow Catholic stories of saving priests would have been inspiring, and he was a great story teller. Nobody denies that Tolkien didn't approve of Marxism and Campbell's satire was funny. I don't think it ever came to much though, the initial enthusiasm must have soured as Campbell never got in with the Inklings, despite being in dire need of a literary 'circle' to join. Maybe Tolkien found out the truth: that Campbell never did fight for anyone, he was just a journalist, and only lasted the course for a few days; he was in Toledo and not Barcelona; the priests were all killed; and he was in Spain as he was on the run from the law in France.

That's the way it reads in the context of the whole letter and absence of any more - though I am very keen not to give those who want to deride Tolkien as some kind of 'nazi' any ammunition!

MCRmyGirl4eva · 05-16-2012, 07:24 AM

In ROTK extended edition, Aragorn tells the Corsairs of Umbar "You may go no further. You will not enter Gondor."

That's along the same lines of "You cannot pass."

My dad was in the United States Air Force, and though he was a wartime veteran, he was never in combat. But he still says it was a pretty basic statement for the Army.

03-07-2012, 05:02 PM	#3
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	I did study it and was lucky enough to meet a veteran when I was 18. The feeling in free Europe at the time was that Franco/fascism was wrong. Dictator de Rivera had been brought down in 1930 and they had a nascent democracy, so Franco, backed by the other fascist regimes of Germany and Italy, was seen as a bully boy, potentially a threat. The British establishment did not get involved in the conflict, officially, but allowed people to freely go and serve, allowed weapons to be shipped to the Republicans, and took in large numbers of Spanish children. Remember who was on the side of Franco and what British people in general, especially WWI veterans, might have thought about that fact. We won't ever know whether Tolkien had the phrase forefront in his mind for Gandalf, but given that he could have chosen from dozens, even hundreds of other phrases (I bet he had a thesaurus ), and chose something that famous...it's not to be dismissed. He'll have known what it meant and he didn't dismiss it. Put it this way, it was as well known as modern catch phrases like "We're All In This Together" or "Yes We Can!" and I'd certainly notice if I slipped one of those into a big moment in a story I was writing (and then go and grab a monster pot of Tippex if it was the former ). I didn't realise how well known it was until recently, which is what prompted me to resurrect Rune's thread. Out of interest, one of Tolkien's former students, and one who held him in great esteem, joined the International Brigades - WH Auden. __________________ Gordon's alive!

05-16-2012, 07:24 AM	#6
MCRmyGirl4eva Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: The Elvenking's Halls Posts: 425	In ROTK extended edition, Aragorn tells the Corsairs of Umbar "You may go no further. You will not enter Gondor." That's along the same lines of "You cannot pass." My dad was in the United States Air Force, and though he was a wartime veteran, he was never in combat. But he still says it was a pretty basic statement for the Army. __________________ "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit..." "'Well, I'm back.' said Sam."